Ralph:
>It
>seems you are talking in ID terms here, saying life has a purpose. Do you
>feel this purpose comes from outside of life or is part of life itself?
>If a living organism dies, did it die because it lost its purpose? Is there
>a purpose to the "purpose"? (I can see my questions are getting murkier
>and murkier--even to me!). I'm just curious about how you see this purpose
>working. Or can we just say: "Life has a purpose--but so what?"
Bertvan
Hi Ralph. "So what" is ok with me. The only purpose to life I discuss is
what life is obviously doing - growing. I put more esoteric "purposes" in
the same category as "the nature of the designer". I don't worry about
questions to which I'm unlikely to find the answer.
> Ralph:
> My understanding is that evolution is not climbing a ladder
>from some crude, barely-works animal form to a "perfect"
> animal form at the topof the ladder. If there were a
>"perfectly evolved" animal, it would be
>perfect only in the sense that it perfectly filled its ecological niche.
>And as soon as its environment changed, that "perfect"
>animal would no longer be "perfect" so some other animal,
>better suited to the changed conditions, could take its place.
>Is this an essentially correct reading of current
>evolution thought or do you understand it differently?
Bertvan:
Maybe the perfect organism could adjust to all environments. Humans are
getting closer. Environments are part of nature and maybe changing
environments are part of the design. (You've given me things to think about.)
Ralph:
>You say death and extinction (that
>seems to be the same thing) were "necessary additions"(?).
> Christian thought says that the world was initially created
> without death, which came into the world as a result of sin.
>Is this the "addition" you're referring to? Or are you simply
>saying that life has to die at some point to make room for new life?
>The concept of life without death has always seemed quite
>foreign to me, probably because that cycle is all I've ever
>seen. (I've often wondered what Adam did about the mosquitoes
>before death came into the world!). There is some interesting work
>being done on *why* we die. Built-in obsolescence and
>accumulated accidents are the two I've read about most often.
>If we attain immortality, will we cease to be alive?
Bertvan;
The biosphere could not have evolved without death and extinction. What
happens if we attain immortality is another of those questions I don't worry
about.
>>Bertvan:
>>A few other things had to be added that hadn't existed before. Adding some
>>measure of intelligence to life probably wasn't enough to make it grow.
>>Motivation was needed for the system to do its own growing. Choice, free
>>will, spontaneity, creativity, consciousness and emotions were probably all
>>necessary new ingredients. They seem to distinguish life from non life.
>>(You'll never find any of them in a computer.)
Ralph
>These things hadn't existed before life started, you mean? Christians
>would disagree with you, I think, since they feel God (who presumably has
>all these things) has always existed. I'm not sure I'm ready to say (as
>you seem to be saying) that all life (if it is to be classified as life)
>has choice, free will, etc. It's a little scary to think of the millions
>of bacteria roaming on and inside of me as having free will, creativity
>and emotions! By the way (in your last sentence again!), I'd be careful
>of that word "never". I think it was Yogi Berra (?) who said something
>like: "Predictions are hard, especially when they're about the future".
Bertvan:
Not being a Christian (or even religious) I can't speak to much of that.
Maybe Christians believe they existed in the mind of god. I have no opinion
on that. Bacteria can be scary, with or without free will. I've seen
pictures of them pursuing, devouring, fleeing and escaping from each other.
How can we be certain they have no choice as to turn right of left.
Respectful apologies to Yogi, but I think I'll go out on a limb and state
that consciousness, free will, creativity and emotions will never be found in
a computer.
Thanks for the non confrontational response
Bertvan
http://members.aol.com/bertvan
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