Reflectorites
On Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:40:04 -0700, Ralph Krumdieck wrote:
[...]
>SJ>The historic Christian position has AFAIK always been that it is only
>>*humans* who would not have died if Adam had not sinned. The "no
>>death before the Fall" doctrine is AFAIK a YEC invention in the
>>20th century. (This is not meant to be a slur on YECs BTW, just a
>>statement of fact).
RK>Thanks for the interesting information. I did not realize that this
>position originated with the YEC people. I have certainly heard it
>espoused by people who are not YEC, so it has spread.
I doubt it, but I would be interested in any quotes or references that Ralph
might have to support his claim. (Note that I do not claim that Ralph is not
sincere in his claim but that he is mistaken).
The reason I doubt it is that the alternative creationist position is OEC, i.e.
old-Earth creationism, which holds the total span of the `days' of Genesis 1
was as long as science says they were, i.e. 4.6 billion years.
Therefore for OECs to believe there was no animal death before the sin of
Adam would mean *billions of years* of no death. But if that were the
case, the Earth would be overrun by *any* species, not just the rapidly
multiplying ones like bacteria and insects. Darwin pointed out that even a
slow-breeding species like the elephant would from a single pair overrun
the Earth in 750 years if its offspring did not die:
"There is no exception to the rule that every organic being naturally
increases at so high a rate that, if not destroyed, the earth would
soon be covered by the progeny of a single pair. Even slow-
breeding man has doubled in twenty-five years, and at this rate, in
less than a thousand years there would literally not be standing-
room for his progeny. Linneus has calculated that if an annual plant
produced only two seeds-and there is no plant so unproductive as
this-and their seedlings next year produced two, and so on, then in
twenty years there would be a million plants. The elephant is
reckoned the slowest breeder of all known animals, and I have
taken some pains to estimate its probable minimum rate of natural
increase; it will be safest to assume that it begins breeding when
thirty years old, and goes on breeding till ninety years old, bringing
forth six young in the interval, and surviving till one hundred years
old; if this be so, after a period of from 740 to 750 years there
would be nearly nineteen million elephants alive, descended from
the first pair." (Darwin C.R., "The Origin of Species", [1872],
reprint, p.69)
That this is so obvious is the reason that I doubt that any OEC believes it.
However, after writing this I realised that there could be a version of OEC
which maintained that the first 4 days of Genesis 1 were billions of years
and days 5 &6 when animals and man were created were ordinary 24 hour
days. I have never heard of such a position and I would be interested if
Ralph can show that such a position exists.
RK>The position had always puzzled me because it seemed that Adam was
>being threatened with something (death) that he knew nothing about.
This is a good point, which OEC have raised with YECs. But I cannot
remember what the YECs reply was.
RK>On the other hand, as the Ross quote makes clear, what Adam was
>really being threatened with was spiritual death, which he probably
>knew nothing about, either. So, go figure.
I don't necessarily agree with Ross on everything, but from his perspective
I presume he would argue that if Adam had observed animal death, it
would not be hard for him to understand the concept of spiritual death.
Personally I differ from Ross in that I regard Genesis 1-11 as probably symbolic
history, i.e. real history but expressed in symbolic form:
"It is argued that the picture of God working like a potter with wet
earth, anthropomorphically breathing life into man, constructing
woman from a rib, with an idyllic garden, trees with theological
significance, and a talking serpent, is the language of theological
symbolism and not of literal prose. The theological truth is there,
and this symbolism is the instrument of inspiration. We are not to
think in terms of scientific and anti-scientific, but in terms of
scientific and pre-scientific. The account is then pre-scientific and in
theological symbolism which is the garment divine inspiration chose
to reveal these truths for their more ready comprehension by the
masses of untutored Christians. This is the view of James Orr who
wrote:
`I do not enter into the question of how we are to interpret the third
chapter of Genesis-whether as history or allegory or myth, or most
probably of all, as old tradition clothed in oriental allegorical dress-
but the truth embodied in that narrative, viz. the fall of man from an
original state of purity, I take to be vital to the Christian view.' (Orr
J., The Christian View of God and the World, 1897, p185)
(Ramm B.L., "The Christian View of Science and Scripture," 1967,
p.223)
Steve
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Stephen E. (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ Email: sejones@iinet.net.au
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ Web: http://www.iinet.net.au/~sejones
Warwick 6024 -> *_,--\_/ Phone: +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, Western Australia v "Test everything." (1 Thess. 5:21)
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