RE: ID vs. ?

From: Nelson Alonso (nalonso@megatribe.com)
Date: Fri Sep 15 2000 - 12:35:37 EDT

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    << Not only is it not "anti-Christian" but it's not even "anti-ID". The
    mammalian ear is at the phenotypical level, thus at this level alone it is
    irrelevant to the irreducible complexity of molecular machines. Also, the
    mammalian inner ear is not irreducibly complex. Thus showing a pathway to
    this system is doubly irrelevant.
    >>

    FMA:
    Remarkable, could you please explain why the inner ear is not irreducible
    complex?

    Nelson:
    Lets apply the definition. The function is that it sends vibrations from the
    ear drum to the oval window. I can remove, one bone and it will still do
    this, I can remove two and it will still do this, heck, I can remove the
    whole thing and I could still hear sound when pressure impacts the oval
    window. >>

    FMA:
    Remarkable, I am amazed at your comments here.

    Nelson:
    Thank you.

    FMA:
     And yet this was used to argue
    against evolution until evolution found the explanation.

    Nelson:
    No, creationists, not IDists, use this to argue that there can be no
    incipient stages between the reptile and human hearing. Nothing at all to do
    with ID. The issue is transitional stages.

    FMA:
    You remove one of
    the bones and hearing in that ear becomes severely impaired. Sure you can
    hear with the other ear. Nelson disagrees with you

    "Because design can explain primary discontinuities, the theory gives an
    account of phenomena inexplicable on naturalistic scenarios. These
    phenomena include the necessary minimal complexity of cells, incongruence
    between developmental pathways and morphological homologies in
    different taxa, the functional complexity of organismal systems (e.g., the
    inner ear), the hierarchical structure of development, genetic pleiotropy,
    and
    architectural aspects of three-dimensional form and function. I discuss
    these
    patterns, and present some ideas for the testing of design claims via
    well-established experimental methods. "

    http://www.origins.org/mc/menus/abstracts.html

    Nelson:
    Thank you for sharing with me Nelson's views, however, despite similiartiy
    of our names, I am not Paul Nelson and Paul Nelson is not me. So your
    efforts here are completely redundant.

    One thing that should tip you off is that reptiles get by with just a

    << one-bone system.
    >>

    FMA:
    So there is a gap between the bone and the membrane? You do realize that if
    you remove one of the three bones in humans that hearing stops ?

    Nelson:
    No I would still be able to hear when pressure waves impact the oval window.
    There is still function even when I remove the entire middle ear.

    FMA:
    If you accept the one bone system then you have to admit that IC systems are
    not evidence of anything.

    Nelson:
    Since the three-bone system is not IC , I am sorry to inform you that your
    argument missed it's target and fell by the way side.

    << FMA:
    Also why is the phenotypical level not relevant? Is IC somehow
    limited to systems for which supporting evidence is likely not to exist? I
    guess this means that the mouse trap example by Behe was irrelevant as well?

    Nelson:
    The mouse trap is an analogy and an example of an irreducibly complex
    system. I never said it was not irreducibly complex. But as far as Darwinian
    selection and biological origins goes, it is irrelevant and only an example.
    The mammalian ear had the help of a developmental program.Molecular machines
    do not, they are what evolution uses.

    FMA:
    So it's ok to show that IC systems can arise naturally. Since this has been
    done, ICness is not reliable evidence of design.
    You seem to be desperately contradicitng yourself here. Can IC systems arise
    naturally or not?

    Nelson:
    Since the 3-bone system is not IC you are arguing a strawman. Since it is at
    the phenotypical level it is doubly irrelevant.

    >>



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