RE: Definitions of ID

From: Nelson Alonso (nalonso@megatribe.com)
Date: Tue Sep 12 2000 - 12:34:54 EDT

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    -----Original Message-----
    From: evolution-owner@lists.calvin.edu
    [mailto:evolution-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On Behalf Of FMAJ1019@aol.com
    Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 12:04 PM
    To: evolution@calvin.edu
    Subject: Fwd: Definitions of ID

    In a message dated 9/12/2000 9:01:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, FMAJ1019
    writes:

    <<

    << Nelson:
    I noticed that your post is simple handwaves. Why is that?

    ======================
    I repeat my assertion. You have not read the argument. Why call it ad
    hominem?
    ======================

    Nelson:
    Your entire post seems to be one-line assertions. I am here to discuss, not
    prove your negatives.

    >>

    I am here to discuss as well and you mentioned "ad hominem". I asserted that
    it was not an ad hominem and asked you why you thought it was an ad hominem?

    Nelson:
    In my post I discussed exactly why it was an ad hominem. Susan seemed to
    agree and turned the attention back to the evidence for design. Susan's
    statement was:

    "This
    is one of the major objectives of the Discovery Institute which, at least
    in part, bankrolls Behe, Dembski and Johnson."

    Now this is unsubstantiated assertion. Not only that but it has absolutely
    nothing to do with Behe's thesis of irreducible complexity among molecular
    machines. Thus it is an ad hominim attack on Intelligent Design theory.

    FMA:
    I raised
    quite a few important issues in the posting you responded to but you only
    included a minor side discussion on whether or not Susan's comments were ad
    hominem.

    Nelson:
    You didn't raise any issues, your entire post was simply "no it's not", "yes
    it is". That is called "handwaving".

    FMA:
    There is a far more interesting issue: Can ID exclude natural designers. My
    argument is that it cannot based on its claims that it does not identify
    designers.

    Nelson:
    Your argument is a strawman. As my Dawkin's quote illustrated, irreducible
    complexity fits the definition of a system that is devoid of functional
    precursors.

    FMA:
     Combine this with the fact that we know that natural pathways
    leading to IC systems exist and the absence of independent evidence of a
    designer biological system and we have 'stumbled' on some very big problems
    for ID.

    Nelson:
    Again, which natural pathways have led to which IC systems? The pathways you
    have shown amount to speculation and error in analysis.

    FMA:
    Or do you disagree with that conclusion?

    Nelson:
    Of course not.



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