Re: WWYD - What Would You Do to make evolution work??

From: Ralph Krumdieck (ralphkru@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU)
Date: Sun Sep 10 2000 - 02:33:58 EDT

  • Next message: Chris Cogan: "Re: WWYD - What Would You Do to make evolution work??"

    Hi Bertvan. I've been lurking for some time (and learning a lot!) but
    always with the intention of eventually contributing so here's my first.
    In many ways, you and I are similar. I am not a student or a faculty
    member at the U. of Oregon. I work in the Admissions Office and I would
    categorize myself as an interested party who tries to keep up with science
    as best I can. In an earlier post you mentioned that some of the posts
    were scientifically over your head. I'm in the same boat and I enjoy the
    research and mental stretching this entails.

    >I prefer to leave the question of whether or not life evolved naturally in
    >the same category as the nature of the designer or what caused the big
    bang.
    >Could be, but hoping doesn't make it true.
    >As to how to implement evolution, I wouldn't change a thing. Some might
    >think speeding up the process might improve it. However, I can think of no
    >reason why fast should be better than slow. As far as we know the only
    >purpose of life is to do what it obviously does - grow. (as individuals and
    >as biospheres)

    Some interesting thoughts here, particularly in that last sentence. It
    seems you are talking in ID terms here, saying life has a purpose. Do you
    feel this purpose comes from outside of life or is part of life itself?
    If a living organism dies, did it die because it lost its purpose? Is there
    a purpose to the "purpose"? (I can see my questions are getting murkier
    and murkier--even to me!). I'm just curious about how you see this purpose
    working. Or can we just say: "Life has a purpose--but so what?"
      
    >Some people have criticized God for his numerous "imperfections". We've
    >discovered astonishing designs in nature, but the first sign of perfection
    >would have stopped evolution in its tracks. (no room for growth.) It had
    to
    >be a plan that continually moves toward perfection without actually reaching
    >it. Death and extinction were also necessary additions to allow growth.

    I want to check on my understanding of evolution here. As I said, I'm no
    expert. My understanding is that evolution is not climbing a ladder from
    some crude, barely-works animal form to a "perfect" animal form at the top
    of the ladder. If there were a "perfectly evolved" animal, it would be
    perfect only in the sense that it perfectly filled its ecological niche.
    And as soon as its environment changed, that "perfect" animal would no longer
    be "perfect" so some other animal, better suited to the changed conditions,
    could take its place. Is this an essentially correct reading of current
    evolution thought or do you understand it differently?

    The last sentence again intrigues me. You say death and extinction (that
    seems to be the same thing) were "necessary additions"(?). Christian
    thought says that the world was initially created without death, which
    came into the world as a result of sin. Is this the "addition" you're
    referring to? Or are you simply saying that life has to die at some point
    to make room for new life? The concept of life without death has always
    seemed quite foreign to me, probably because that cycle is all I've ever
    seen. (I've often wondered what Adam did about the mosquitoes before
    death came into the world!). There is some interesting work being done
    on *why* we die. Built-in obsolescence and accumulated accidents are
    the two I've read about most often. If we attain immortality, will we
    cease to be alive?

    >A few other things had to be added that hadn't existed before. Adding some
    >measure of intelligence to life probably wasn't enough to make it grow.
    >Motivation was needed for the system to do its own growing. Choice, free
    >will, spontaneity, creativity, consciousness and emotions were probably all
    >necessary new ingredients. They seem to distinguish life from non life.
    >(You'll never find any of them in a computer.)

    These things hadn't existed before life started, you mean? Christians
    would disagree with you, I think, since they feel God (who presumably has
    all these things) has always existed. I'm not sure I'm ready to say (as
    you seem to be saying) that all life (if it is to be classified as life)
    has choice, free will, etc. It's a little scary to think of the millions
    of bacteria roaming on and inside of me as having free will, creativity
    and emotions! By the way (in your last sentence again!), I'd be careful
    of that word "never". I think it was Yogi Berra (?) who said something
    like: "Predictions are hard, especially when they're about the future".

    ralph



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