At 10:07 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:01:50 -0800 Brian D Harper
><bharper@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:
> >
> > First, I recognize that my position (and Burgy's) is a difficult
> > one.
> > Nevertheless,
> > it seems to me (I could be wrong) that you and others fail to
> > appreciate how
> > difficult your position is. For example, I can say the same to you
> > as you have
> > said to Burgy. Either we have free will to chose or reject God or
> > we do not.
> > You can't have it both ways. More below.
> >
> > This seems to me to trivialize free will to the point of turning it
> > into a
> > tautology.
> > We are free to choose but God saw in advance how we would choose? If
> > God put me among the elect from the beginning of time then I cannot
> > see where
> > I have any freedom.
> > Just because I am trapped in time and cannot see
> > it doesn't
> > make me any more free, it just makes me blind, so I'm a blind robot
> > instead of
> > just a robot.
> >
> > Now, I don't pretend to have the answer to this. As I said, I
> > recognize the
> > difficulty
> > in my position. I will be quite satisfied if I've at least
> > encouraged
> > others to recognize
> > the difficulty in their position.
> >
> > My own position is to always begin and end everything in Jesus. We
> > receive
> > absolutely
> > nothing from God except as a gift through Jesus. I think the passage
> > I
> > quoted from
> > Ephesians supports this. It seems Paul is bending over backwards to
> > make
> > sure we
> > do not come to the (IMHO) arrogant position that God would choose us
> > and
> > not someone
> > else. Without exception, Paul always qualifies any mention of
> > anything
> > pertaining to our
> > election with "in Christ". I conclude from this that it is Christ
> > who God
> > foreknew, He is
> > the Elect. We become part of this only by burying ourselves in Him.
> > Once we
> > are buried
> > in Him, we are part of the election.
> >
> > So, how can it be that God would not know from the beginning of time
> > that I
> > would choose
> > to bury myself in Christ? I don't know. Perhaps this is one of those
> > things
> > we have to
> > assign as unknowable in this life. But here is a speculation.
> > Perhaps the
> > Creation of beings
> > who are truly free required a tremendous sacrifice on his part. Of
> > course,
> > it cost the life of
> > his Son, but perhaps even more. Perhaps he had to freely relinquish
> > some of
> > his power in
> > order to cut us loose. Then again ... Anyway, this is one of many
> > things
> > I'll be very interested
> > in finding out in the Life to come. My guess is that God will
> > surprise us
> > all :).
> >
> >
> > Brian Harper
>
>It is clear to me that my redemption is in Christ. The redemption of the
>Old Testament saints was also in him, though they looked forward to what
>would be accomplished in time. But I do not see that this applies to
>everything. "For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
>and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew5:45) does not
>seem to connect to the incarnation.
>
>On the matter of human free will and divine foreknowledge without
>causation, let me return to Abbott and _Flatland_. Note that everything
>that the Flatlander did was observable to Spacelander, but, until
>Spacelander picked Flatlander out of his 2 dimensions, he caused none of
>the Flatlander's actions. In other words, observation is not causation.
>Apply the analogous notion to God, to whom all time is open even though
>we are restricted to the present moment. I choose freely, but my choice
>is observed by him "at all times" or eternally, not just at the moment
>when I act. In other words, "before" the foundation of the world, he knew
>my choices. He did not control my choices, for knowledge, even God's
>knowledge, is not causation. Only from our viewpoint is it foreknowledge
>and predestination. But it is also how things are when all time is taken
>into account, all wrapped up in the divine "now."
>
>The problem that you and Burgy have, as I see it, is the common problem
>of human beings. We are so totally creatures of time that we cannot
>imagine that time is not also applicable to God. We have to recognize
>that the before and after of all out experience does not apply to his.
>Even our eternity is temporal, the ages of ages. His eternity, though we
>use the same word, is non-temporal.
This may well be my problem, but what I was trying to do is follow out the
consequences wrt free will if God *does* see the world as you and others
have suggested.
I like the flat land analogy but I believe it fails in the sense that God
is not
only an observer, he is also creator. OK, so let's suppose that God created
the entire universe (space-time) at once. Is God so constrained that this is
the only all at once space-time universe that he could create? Could he have
created one ever so slightly different from this one except that I choose (for
sake of argument) not to follow Christ but Joe Bloe from my previous example
does? So, how can we place God as merely an observer with choices being
made by us? Is it possible for me to change the fabric of this all at once
created
space-time? If so, then how can we say it was all at once created? If not, how
can we say that I am free?
Another observer illustration: Suppose you and I got together and observed the
behavior of Burgy for a very long time. Suppose eventually it came to the point
that we could predict Burgy's behavior in each and every situation. Would you
say that Burgy is free? I would say no. Nevertheless, we are only observers,
we are not causing any of the things Burgy does. Thus it seems to me that
complete predictability (no surprises) eliminates any reasonable (not
simplistic)
possibility of freedom.
Another speculation: Is it possible that there are many many possible universes
and the particular one we occupy is the result of many many free will choices?
[note: this is not an Anthropic Principle type "many worlds" wherein these
different
universes actually exist. Only one exists but many are possible]. Many of these
possible universes have me as a believer and Joe Bloe as a nonbeliever. In many
others the situation is reversed. In yet others, my parents never met and I
don't
even exist :). The idea then is that God would foresee all possibilities,
not just the
one actualized by the free choices that happened to have happened. [this idea
is based on an excellent essay by William James, "The Dilemma of Determinism".]
Brian Harper | "If you don't understand
Associate Professor | something and want to
Applied Mechanics | sound profound, use the
The Ohio State University | word 'entropy'"
| -- Morrowitz
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Feb 24 2000 - 18:30:02 EST