On Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:01:50 -0800 Brian D Harper
<bharper@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> writes:
>
> First, I recognize that my position (and Burgy's) is a difficult
> one.
> Nevertheless,
> it seems to me (I could be wrong) that you and others fail to
> appreciate how
> difficult your position is. For example, I can say the same to you
> as you have
> said to Burgy. Either we have free will to chose or reject God or
> we do not.
> You can't have it both ways. More below.
>
> This seems to me to trivialize free will to the point of turning it
> into a
> tautology.
> We are free to choose but God saw in advance how we would choose? If
> God put me among the elect from the beginning of time then I cannot
> see where
> I have any freedom.
> Just because I am trapped in time and cannot see
> it doesn't
> make me any more free, it just makes me blind, so I'm a blind robot
> instead of
> just a robot.
>
> Now, I don't pretend to have the answer to this. As I said, I
> recognize the
> difficulty
> in my position. I will be quite satisfied if I've at least
> encouraged
> others to recognize
> the difficulty in their position.
>
> My own position is to always begin and end everything in Jesus. We
> receive
> absolutely
> nothing from God except as a gift through Jesus. I think the passage
> I
> quoted from
> Ephesians supports this. It seems Paul is bending over backwards to
> make
> sure we
> do not come to the (IMHO) arrogant position that God would choose us
> and
> not someone
> else. Without exception, Paul always qualifies any mention of
> anything
> pertaining to our
> election with "in Christ". I conclude from this that it is Christ
> who God
> foreknew, He is
> the Elect. We become part of this only by burying ourselves in Him.
> Once we
> are buried
> in Him, we are part of the election.
>
> So, how can it be that God would not know from the beginning of time
> that I
> would choose
> to bury myself in Christ? I don't know. Perhaps this is one of those
> things
> we have to
> assign as unknowable in this life. But here is a speculation.
> Perhaps the
> Creation of beings
> who are truly free required a tremendous sacrifice on his part. Of
> course,
> it cost the life of
> his Son, but perhaps even more. Perhaps he had to freely relinquish
> some of
> his power in
> order to cut us loose. Then again ... Anyway, this is one of many
> things
> I'll be very interested
> in finding out in the Life to come. My guess is that God will
> surprise us
> all :).
>
>
> Brian Harper
It is clear to me that my redemption is in Christ. The redemption of the
Old Testament saints was also in him, though they looked forward to what
would be accomplished in time. But I do not see that this applies to
everything. "For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Matthew5:45) does not
seem to connect to the incarnation.
On the matter of human free will and divine foreknowledge without
causation, let me return to Abbott and _Flatland_. Note that everything
that the Flatlander did was observable to Spacelander, but, until
Spacelander picked Flatlander out of his 2 dimensions, he caused none of
the Flatlander's actions. In other words, observation is not causation.
Apply the analogous notion to God, to whom all time is open even though
we are restricted to the present moment. I choose freely, but my choice
is observed by him "at all times" or eternally, not just at the moment
when I act. In other words, "before" the foundation of the world, he knew
my choices. He did not control my choices, for knowledge, even God's
knowledge, is not causation. Only from our viewpoint is it foreknowledge
and predestination. But it is also how things are when all time is taken
into account, all wrapped up in the divine "now."
The problem that you and Burgy have, as I see it, is the common problem
of human beings. We are so totally creatures of time that we cannot
imagine that time is not also applicable to God. We have to recognize
that the before and after of all out experience does not apply to his.
Even our eternity is temporal, the ages of ages. His eternity, though we
use the same word, is non-temporal.
Just a word for Burgy: if he expects to surprise God, he's going to have
to get up before the Lord does.
Dave
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