Re: IDT criticized: Meta list

From: Nucacids@aol.com
Date: Sat Sep 30 2000 - 15:37:43 EDT

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    Some brief comments:

    Larry Arnhart:

    " This confusion in "intelligent design theory"--both affirming
    and denying "recourse to the supernatural"--points to the fundamental
    fallacy in the argument as arising from equivocation in the use of
    the term "intelligent design." Both Dembski and Michael Behe use
    the term "intelligent design" without clearly distinguishing "HUMANLY
    intelligent design" from "DIVINELY intelligent design." We have all
    observed how the human mind can cause effects that are humanly
    designed, and from such observable effects, we can infer the
    existence of humanly intelligent designers. But insofar as we have
    never directly observed a divine intelligence (that is, an omniscient
    and omnipotent intelligence) causing effects that are divinely
    designed, we cannot infer a divinely intelligent designer from our
    common human experience."

    I've never understood ID as something that detects divine intelligent
    design. As Arnhart notes, "We have all observed how the human
    mind can cause effects that are humanly designed, and from such
    observable effects, we can infer the existence of humanly
    intelligent designers." (indeed, and as Michael Polanyi wrote,
    "If all men were exterminated, this would not affect the laws of
    inanimate nature. But the production of machines would stop,
    and not until men arose again could machines be formed once
    more.") Now, since we can infer the existence of humanly
    intelligent designs, we ought to be able to infer the existence
    of design at the hands of human-like agents, at least tentatively.
    As I see it, that is as far as ID can go. If one wants to equate the
    human-like intelligence with divine intelligence, it would seem that
    they would need factors extrinsic to ID (faith, philosophical arguments,
    etc.).

    Daniel Falush:

    "Here the author complains about the lack of any pathways or research to
    support ID's theses. If one wants to provide a scientific alternative to
    Darwinism then complaining about Darwinism is not enough.
    " Intelligent design poses a direct challenge. In "Darwin's Black
    Box", Michael Behe pays lip service to common descent but he did not
    show that his ideas compatible with it and in practice they are not
    (this is not the principal criticism that has been made of the book)."

    How in the world is ID incompatible with common decent (CD)?
    If that were true, genetic engineering could not exist. For example,
    a transgenic mouse is related, by descent, to the population of mice
    from which it came. But it also exists because its genome has been
    manipulated by an intelligent agent. There is nothing in evolution
    which serves as a barrier to intelligent intervention.

    "Skeptics are free to complain about dogmatism but it would be much
    more productive if instead they devoted their energies to developing
    either (1) a version of ID theory that is compatible with common
    descent"

    That's easy. I currently constrain my ID views to the origin of life
    on this planet. The original life forms, existing because of ID, then
    evolve. Of course, despite the fact that non-teleologists really
    have no alternative mechanism for the origin of life (in fact, we
    really have no evidence that abiogenesis occurred by purely
    non-teleological means), this ID position, that is clearly
    compatible with common descent, is still dismissed with the
    same flippant attitude. I have no problem with this, but it
    shows that the problem posed by ID is not that it would
    force us to abandon the fact, Fact, FACT of common descent.

    "or (2) an empirically validated criterion for differentiating
    organisms that do have a common ancestor from those that do not.
    The first two chapters of Darwin's "Origin of Species", provide a
    compelling argument that it will be impossible to find such a
    criterion. I sincerely and genuinely wish the skeptics luck in their
    attempts.""

    Well, if we have no empirically validated criterion for differentiating
    organisms that do have a common ancestor from those that do not,
    then the cat is out of the bag. That is, the inference of common
    descent in science is not tested against a null hypothesis. Thus,
    if someone says, "X is related to Y by common descent," we need
    to remember that such a claim was made without an empirically
    validated criterion for differentiating organisms that do have a
    common ancestor from those that do not.

    Cliff Hamrick:

    "Dr. Dembski, despite his claims of intelligent design as a
    scientific theory, is not conducting scientific research. Science is
    based on the principle of testable, falsifiable hypotheses. I will
    give the proponents of intelligent design credit for having a
    well-thought out, perfectly logical hypothesis that the universe and
    the living things in it are too specifically complex to have arisen
    by random chance alone. I agree with the premise of this hypothesis
    and that has bolstered my faith in a divine power. However, it is
    not scientific until some means of testing that hypothesis can be
    shown. I have never seen, though Dembski and cohorts profess to
    possess, any viable means of testing this hypothesis."

    This sounds good, but remember the context. Science proposes
    such things as 1. life originated by non-life through purely non-
    teleological mechanisms; 2. the bacterial flagellum arose through
    random mutations and natural selection; and 3. the reptile to bird
    transition was driven by random mutations and natural selection.
    Yet I have not seen any "tests" for the validity or invalidity of
    these hypotheses.

    I think it important not to conflate operational science with
    historical analyses. The terms "testing and falsification" mean
    something very concrete when trying to determine, for example,
    which residues constitute the active site in alcohol dehydrogenase.
    But when talking about origin events in ancient, unobservable history,
    the whole notion of "testing" is quite different. Here, it becomes
    more vague, more indirect, and essentially amounts to an "if, then"
    scenario supported with circumstantial evidence. If that bothers
    someone, complain to Nature and get busy inventing a time machine.

    Mike



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