In a message dated 9/29/2000 3:56:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
vernon.jenkins@virgin.net writes:
<< VJ: I here offer some responses to adverse comments re my claim that from
the numerics underlying the Bible's opening words, we may infer a
supernatural origin - and much more beside!
>>
I'd argue that the Bible itself is enough to infer a supernatural origin. At
least to those who hold the Christian faith. The question is: Can the text
itself be held as evidence of a supernatural origin?
<< Chris Cogan > "It won't work because the method itself actually
discriminates between two classes of propositions (more than two,
actually). Jenkins' method does not consistently or meaningfully
distinguish between truth and falsehood, since it may be used to
pseudo-prove both sides of a contradiction."
VJ > This is a form of rhetoric I am unable to understand! Presumably,
you are unhappy that my arguments are largely based upon 'coincidence' -
'numerical coincidence', in particular. Now I would agree that while >>
It is important to 1) show that the coincidences are more than that 2) to
show that these coincidences are supernatural.
<< numbers can represent an exceedingly 'soft' medium for the more
imaginative among us, they are more famously associated with precision,
and with 'getting to the truth of things'. Thus, the SETI project
operates on the understanding that an alien intelligence (if such
exists) might wish to announce its galactic presence by transmitting a
recurrent stream, or packet, of numerical 'goodies' which, because of
their specially chosen characteristics, could not be fairly attributed
to chance. Reasonable assumptions about 'what kinds of signals are we
>>
Therefore we assume we can recognize aliens by looking at sequences we can
understand from our human experience. That is the evidence we are looking for
would be similar to evidence of human existence. Therefore the argument that
we can extent this to the supernatural is a leap of faith.
[...]
<<
My research techniques - applied to the Hebrew text of the Old Testament
and the Greek text of the New - have followed an identical path;
clearly, they have the same validty as those of SETI, wouldn't you
agree? In actual fact, of course, mine have access to further
possibilities that are unavailable to SETI, viz context and symbolism.
>>
So are you claiming that you have found an extra terrestrial origin for the
Bible or that the Bible was written by earth based intelligent life?
Presuming that your coincidences are more than just coincidences, you now
have shown that there is an intelligent pattern that we can relate to human
intelligence. How does this purport to show evidence of supernatural
intelligence?
<< On the matter of 'coincidence', the methods of forensic medicine are
used to determine matters of life and death in many situations where the
only evidence available is circumstantial. Am I wrong in applying these
methods in my own investigations? >>
Yes. In case of forensic medicine we have independent evidence on the decay
of bodies etc. We are not relying on the supernatural in forensic medicine.
<<
FMAJ > "I'd suggest that you show us that the numerical geometries and
symbolisms are indeed not a common place. As the Bible Code for instance
has shown, it is quite easy to find 'hidden messages' in texts, messages
that are nothing more than a figment of our imaginative mind. Are these
structures indeed more than just a coincidence? Have you such research
to show this?
Until shown otherwise, it would be foolish to consider these
'coincidences' more than just chance."
VJ > May I suggest you look at 'The Creation Geometries' on my first
website. Clearly, to demonstrate that such structures do not exist in
the first sentence of other major writings would be the work of a
lifetime - and more! In my view, it is sufficient that they are found
to occur in the opening words of Bible - and in circumstances that
demand a supernatural explanation.
>>
The same failure to perform the necessary research lead to the demise of the
Bible code arguments. That you believe to have found design in the opening
words of the Bible could be 1) coincidence 2) evidence of a designing
observer who sees design where there is none 3) evidence of natural design 4)
evidence of supernatural design. The issue is how to eliminate the
possibilities and find positive evidence of supernatural design.
<< FMAJ > "The Bible does not need numerology for its message."
VJ > How can you be so sure? My understanding is that God's ways are
past finding out!
>>
And yet you try to find out more about his ways?
<< billwald > "Let's say your analysis is correct. What do we do with it?
Predict winning numbers for the lottery?"
VJ > No. We would surely be wiser to examine the miracle most carefully
and , thereafter, apply some reason to our further thoughts and actions.
>>
Good theological reasons but he was asking about scientific reasons.
<< billwald > "There are several hundred Christian denominations already
believing that the Christian Bible is true and they can't agree to its
meaning."
VJ > Most have failed to understand the character of God; in
particular, His sovereignty; they therefore feel they can pick and
choose what to believe, and what to reject.
>>
Is that not what you are doing here?
<< billwald > "Does your theory have predictive value that can be tested?"
VJ > Not in the generally accepted sense.
>>
That's too bad
<< billwald > "Maybe it is a form of mind control produced by space
aliens. It could be useful to the space aliens to have humans united
under the Christian religion."
VJ > Personally, I find it easier to believe the Bible to be God's word
to man: created in His image, and the pinnacle of His creation!
>>
Sure, we all accept your belief, but it seems that you are trying to make it
'scientific'. If your argument is that you believe to have found evidence
that strengthen your faith then all the power to you. But that does not make
the evidence necessarily scientific.
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