> >>Susan (from superb website)
> >> >"However, mutations appear to be spontaneous in most instances. That
> does
> >> >not mean that they
> >> > occur without cause but, rather, that the specific cause is almost
> always
> >> >unknown." It seemed like the *true* agnostic position.
> >
> >Bertvan:
> >>So we can on occasions agree, Susan. Cause unknown! (Might or might
> not be
> >>design.) Could even be God. The only evolution I ever questioned was "a
> >>gradual accumulation of micro evolution, small random mutations, without
> >>design or purpose, creating complexity by natural selection". If the cause
> >>is unknown, no one knows whether or not variations are random. No one
>knows
> >>whether the "watchmaker" was blind or whether he knew exactly what he was
> >>doing. If the variations are not random, they have no need for natural
> >>selection. They work the first time they appear.
>
> >Ralph:
> >They work the first time they appear? Yet one of the prime arguments that
> >creationists and other free spirits have used is that "most mutations are
> >harmful". Why would that be if the mutations are not random? "Bad"
> >mutations are random and "good" mutations are designed? I just love
> >having my cake and eating it, too. :)
>
>Bertvan:
>Those mutations that someone claims to add complexity are apparently so rare,
>and even those are being argued, that I don't see how anyone could declare
>whether or not they are "random". Biologists are not required work under a
>design inference. However those scientists who choose to work under a design
>inference would regard harmful mutations as not adhering to the design.
>Mistakes. They wouldn't regard a beneficial mutation, if we ever identify
>one, a mistake, but part of the design.
Harmful mutations are "mistakes", beneficial mutations are
"part of the design". Good cake. :) Why, though, are you so skeptical
about the occurrence of beneficial mutations? Aren't they necessary to carry
out the design? Or is it optional that the design be realized?
ralph
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