>>Susan (from superb website)
>> >"However, mutations appear to be spontaneous in most instances. That does
>> >not mean that they
>> > occur without cause but, rather, that the specific cause is almost always
>> >unknown." It seemed like the *true* agnostic position.
>
>Bertvan:
>>So we can on occasions agree, Susan. Cause unknown! (Might or might not be
>>design.) Could even be God. The only evolution I ever questioned was "a
>>gradual accumulation of micro evolution, small random mutations, without
>>design or purpose, creating complexity by natural selection". If the cause
>>is unknown, no one knows whether or not variations are random. No one
knows
>>whether the "watchmaker" was blind or whether he knew exactly what he was
>>doing. If the variations are not random, they have no need for natural
>>selection. They work the first time they appear.
>Ralph:
>They work the first time they appear? Yet one of the prime arguments that
>creationists and other free spirits have used is that "most mutations are
>harmful". Why would that be if the mutations are not random? "Bad"
>mutations are random and "good" mutations are designed? I just love
>having my cake and eating it, too. :)
Bertvan:
Those mutations that someone claims to add complexity are apparently so rare,
and even those are being argued, that I don't see how anyone could declare
whether or not they are "random". Biologists are not required work under a
design inference. However those scientists who choose to work under a design
inference would regard harmful mutations as not adhering to the design.
Mistakes. They wouldn't regard a beneficial mutation, if we ever identify
one, a mistake, but part of the design.
>Bertvan:
>> I don't think ID people
>>have any quarrel with "unknowns".
Ralph:
>I doubt if anyone does, Bertvan. Unknowns leave plenty of room
>for everyone's pet hobby horse.
Bertvan:
Most science admits unknowns. At the moment most evolutionists, if they do
admit they don't know how evolution occurred, are pretty dogmatic about
stating they know for sure how it didn't happen. If they don't insist
evolution was the result of "random mutation and natural selection", most
evolutionists have no hesitancy in stating categorically that nature's
complexity is not the result of any design, plan or purpose.
Bertvan
http://members.aol.com/bertvan
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