Designed Designers?

From: Bertvan@aol.com
Date: Fri Aug 04 2000 - 16:29:50 EDT

  • Next message: billwald@juno.com: "Re: Just a Theory"

    to: billwald@juno.com

    Bertvan:
    >> If someone wants to define science as
    >>excluding the "supernatural", they must exclude free will,
    >>spontaneity, and creativity. I am convinced they all exist as
    >>a part of reality. However
    >>all three are at the present time"supernatural" in that science has no
    >>explanation for them - no way to measure or define them.

    Bill:
    >Agreed. Supernatural stuff is not less real than hard science, it is
    >analyzed by different rules.

    >Spontaneity and creativity are observable even if not physically
    >measurable.
    >I can't think of any observable characteristics for free will. Why do you
    >classify
    >it with spontaneity and creativity? Is not what people call free will
    >actually what we observe as spontaneity? Isn't free will primarially a
    >religious presupposition?

    Hi Bill,
    If we are going to divide the universe up into scientific realities and
    religious realities, I suppose free will might be classified as a "religious
    presupposition". In that case, some people might decide they are more
    religious than they realized. As an agnostic, I'll accept that definition
    and classify my agnosticism as a religion. Wouldn't atheism also qualify as
    a religion if belief in the existence or non existence of free will is
    classified as a "religious presupposition"? While some people seem to
    regard their "free will" as an illusion, others are convinced, from personal
    observation, that the choices they make are real. If free will does exist,
    it plays a part in the physical world. Bio feed back and the placebo effect
    are examples of ways free will has bee observed to interact with the world of
    molecules and physical forces. I'm not sure I would even distinguish between
    free will, creativity, and spontaneity. But you and I might have different
    definitions of these last two. Perhaps you define creativity and spontaneity
    as accidental events, with out plan, purpose, or design. I distinguish
    between accidents and free will/spontaneity/creativity - and the latter
    always includes intelligence and purpose (by my definition). What do you
    think?

    Bertvan
    http://members.aol.com



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