>At 10:22 AM 09/16/1999 -0500, Wesley wrote:
WRE>Shannon's specialty is information theory. His information
WRE>measure, negentropy, is as in the following equation:
WRE> H = - k * sum_i ( p_i * log_2( p_i ) )
WRE>Could Art please post Spetner's information measure equation
WRE>so that we can compare the two?
AC>We are comparing a popular book, written for interested
AC>laypersons with a scientific publication. Are you suggesting
AC>that Spetner is ignorant of Shannon,
No. If Spetner is applying Shannon's measure, then I already
know about that, and can discuss things in those terms. If
Spetner uses his own information measure, then I would need to
know what that measure is before I can evaluate examples I
know about in terms of Spetnerian information, and comment
upon the relation, if any, between Shannon information and
Spetnerian information.
AC>or are you suggesting that the only way things matter is if
AC>they are expressed as mathematical equations?
When the question of interest concerns *quantities*, as in
asking the question, "Can evolutionary processes result in an
*increase* in information?" it is relevant and *necessary*
that the means of quantification is clear. How one does that
without giving the equation is beyond me. If Spetner or Art
want to focus on a question that does not involve quantities,
then I will have no further objection to not having an
equation in hand.
AC>Intelligent people (mathematicians aside) can express complex
AC>and subtle ideas in simple terms. Show me Shannon's ideas
AC>expressed in another popular book (I hasven't seen that one)
AC>and then we can compare apples with apples.
I'm interested in the weight of this orange, where the orange
is referenced by the assertion, "Evolutionary processes cannot
produce an increase in information." If Art doesn't have a
scale, and Spetner doesn't have a scale, I'd like to ask why
they think my orange doesn't weigh more than theirs does. A
scale reduces the problem to practice and provides us with an
intersubjective approach to comparing our oranges. If Art and
Spetner give up making claims about the weights of oranges in
the absence of a scale that can deliver those weights
precisely, then I will stop asking for the evidence of the
scale. Until then, performing a juggling act will not
convince me that their orange of the unmodified genome is
always and everywhere heavier than my orange resulting from an
evolutionary process.
Spetner's equation yielding his information measure is the
scale. I'd be very surprised if it were much more complex
than Shannon's.
Wesley