Re: A question for TE's

Russ Maatman (rmaatman@dordt.edu)
Sat, 25 Nov 1995 11:38:58 -0600 (CST)

To the reflectorites:

ABSTRACT: I discuss further the recent scientific claim that all men
descended through the male line from a male who lived about 190,000
years ago. I claim that we must look at Jesus' Incarnation, and
that certain arguments in favor of a genetic link between human
beings an animals must be ruled out. In particular, I respond to
Dave Probert.

On 23 November I asked TE's about the discovery that says part
of the Y chromosome indicates all men descended (father-son,
etc.) from a male who lived about 190,000 years ago. On 24 November
I explained what the different possible answers to my question
meant (in my view, anyway). Dave Probert responded, quoting me:

***************************
(Dave)
Hi Russ -
> ... and (what seems to me) to be the obvious implication: If, by
> means of analysis of the Y chromosome, all men can be shown to have
> descended from one man who lived long ago (perhaps 190,000 years
ago),
> then Jesus, were his Y chromosome analyzed, would also appear to
have
> descended from that one man--assuming, as Christians must, that
he
> was fully human.

I see no reason to conclude that Jesus would also share this common
Y chromosome, because I see no reason to assume that sharing the
190,000 year lineage of this chromosome is a requirement for Jesus
to be fully human.

You have begged the question.

Dave

**********************************
(Russ, present)

Wow! Earlier Denis Lamoureux responded and I accused him of what amounted
to an ad hominem argument, and now Dave says I beg the question. Seems
that we are re-playing that freshman logic class!

I think that Dave's problem arose because in answering Denis I quoted
only part of what I said earlier. Dave wants to give a different answer
to the original question about Jesus and the Y chromosome. I was trying
to be brief, but it didn't work out. So here is more of the earlier
discussion:

******************************
(Russ, 23 November)

This morning's paper carried a story about an article in *Nature*
concerning the Y chromosome, a follow-up on work reported last May.

Analysis of this chromosome indicates that all modern men
are descendants of one male who lived about 190,000 years ago. I
assume "modern" includes the last several thousand years.

Here is my question: Did Jesus possess this chromosome?

***************************************
(Dave Probert's earlier answer)

Perhaps this is a trick question, but other than speculation,
what tools are we supposed to use to detemine the answer?
Analysis of the blood on the Shroud of Turin? Or do you
want a purely theological argument?

My suggestion would be that we cannot know. Assuming immaculate
conception and that Jesus was male and fully human, the Spirit
of God must have crafted the male contribution to His DNA (or
perhaps Jesus' entire DNA). What basis would we have to draw any
conclusions about the content of the DNA? We don't even know what
Jesus specifically looked like.

***************************************
(Russ, responding earlier to both Dave and Denis)

In the following, I am assuming that the reported research holds up.

As I see it, a person might give one of three answers to my question--
yes, no, I don't know. I'll take up these three in reverse order:

1. "I don't know." This answer represents no more than a
statement of the limitation on what one knows. The actual state
of affairs corresponds to "yes" or "no." So it's ontology, not
epistemology, that is the issue. After all, we do assume certain
things about Jesus's body even though we have no biblical statements
to prove our assumptions and the science of Jesus's day had no way
of deciding the issue. Thus, we assume his blood circulated,
that his body contained DNA, and so forth.

2. "No." The doctrine that Jesus is fully human and like us except
for sin surely ought not to be limited to the kind of test that
could be applied in Jesus's day. That doctrine ought to hold up
if he were among us today. So, if Jesus's Y chromosome could be
shown to be different from that of other men, we would have scientific
proof that he did not descend from any contemporary man. Scientific
proof of the Virgin Birth? Scientific proof of divinity? Scientific
proof that Jesus was just a little different from other human
beings, that is, different in a little more than the matter
of sin?

3. "Yes." Then his Y chromosome was miraculously created to *look
like* the Y chromosome of a being from whom he was not descended.
If that is so, then what is the objection against holding that
the first humanbeings possessed genetic material which *looked
like* the genetic material of beings from whom they were not
descended?

******************************
(Russ, present)

I think that Dave's claim that I begged the question rests
on my assumption of "yes," rather than "either yes or no." But
Dave, it was actually either "yes" or "no"; can you defend "no"?
You seem to be saying that the "little difference" implied by
"no" means nothing re his full humanity. Maybe you are correct.
But then, if "no" applied, a blood test could have shown that
Jesus had no human father. Do you really think that a scientific
test, if it only had been available, might have settled the
virgin birth question? Please understand what I am saying: had
such a test shown Jesus was not different from other men, it would
not have proved there had been no virgin birth. But if a test
would have shown him to be different in that one matter--not like
any possible human father--there would have been a very strong
indication he was indeed born of a virgin.

I hope no one invokes the argument that blood tests were not
available when Jesus was born. For this matter, the historical
period in which he lived on earth is irrelevant.

I hope I have not hopelessly confused the matter. If I have, it would
not be a first for me.

Russ

P.S. While I was writing the above, I heard a National Public Radio
report of the research I referred to. Not a word about Jesus.

e-mail: rmaatman@dordt.edu Home address:
Russell Maatman 401 Fifth Ave. SE
Dordt College Sioux Center, Iowa 51250
Sioux Center, Iowa 51250 Home phone: (712) 722-0421