From: Debbie Mann (deborahjmann@insightbb.com)
Date: Mon Apr 28 2003 - 09:35:56 EDT
I disagree - at least as far as most of the Bible, particularly the NT s
concerned. I guess, until recently, I've always figured that Adam and Eve
could have gone on forever in the Garden. And there is the issue of the
'genetic pureness' or whatever that is ascribed to the long lives before the
flood. Lion and lamb coexisted in the Garden. So yes, there was a victory
over physical death - at least in the Garden. (I don't know about you, but I
never thought that this peace extended beyond the boundaries of Eden.)
However, I Cor. 15, which Jim brought up, talks about there being no
resurrection without physical death - but the life that follows is certainly
not physical. The immortal life is spiritual.
More strongly, Ephesians 2:1 says that "you were dead" certainly, that is
not physical death.
(By the way, am I the only one in the world who thinks that life in the
Garden would have been boring after a century or so? I am certainly hoping
that heaven is a complex place with complex challenges. I have no desire to
feed the deer or lounge around in mansions for all eternity. Even with the
ecstasy of the presence of God, I am really hoping
for more than just eternal peace.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Winterstein [mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 5:23 AM
To: Jim Eisele; Debbie Mann; asa
Subject: Re: No death before the fall theology
Jim Eisele wrote:
>
> Your Bible teaches that the cause of human death
> is sin. We know this is false. The Bible attributes
> words about creation directly to God that we know are
> false.
>
> Normal, honest reaction: no all-powerful being is
> behind the Bible.
>
> Frequent Christian reaction: Maybe a day isn't a
> day. Or, maybe Genesis genealogies have gaps. Some
> Christians, to their credit, admit the Bible begins
> with mythology. They want to say the OT is false
> but the NT is true. Isn't the same god supposed to
> be behind both of these?
>
> Physical death as a consequence of sin is central
> Christian doctrine, not some trivial census number.
> And the Bible got it wrong. When Christians are
> confronted with this, generally the silence or the
> dishonesty begins.
Jim makes some points that Christians should acknowledge are valid. In a
sense, practical Christian theology is in crisis, and many parish leaders
have heads buried in sand. "Death" in the Bible most of the time refers to
physical death, and resurrection refers to physical resurrection. When Paul
says death came by one man and resurrection by another, he speaks of
physical death and physical resurrection. To say he means spiritual death
and physical resurrection would be nonsense. The fall into sin was a fall
from a perfect world where no one died into a flawed world where everyone
dies, and Jesus reversed the consequences of this fall for those who accept
him. That's the biblical reference frame. That's almost certainly the
frame
in which the apostle Paul operated.
The Bible is indeed "wrong" in that the cosmic spiritual and physical
reference frame one deduces from a straightforward reading is incorrect.
And most lay Christians as I perceive them are not going to be content with
anything other than a straightforward reading. That's why they receive
creation research publicists with enthusiasm. My perception is that most
Christians who have abandoned a straightforward reading of the Bible have
largely lost missionary zeal. They don't try to convert anyone, partly
because they're not so sure their interpretation is correct. Combine these
ingredients and you get crisis: the Church is subsisting in a long-term
untenable state.
What will it take to get the Church back to a long-term tenable state?
Paradigm change. But the necessary paradigm change will have to come with
authority, not from a theology that draws its strength from human reason.
Spiritual authority comes in only one form: revelation. And the revelation
will have to say that some previous revelation needs updating. In other
words, revelation is not necessarily what people have thought it was. God
is not necessarily who people have thought he was.
God is behind the Bible. Whether he is "all-powerful" or not, "infinite" or
not, or has any of those other imaginary philosophical attributes or not,
may be
debatable; but he's powerful enough. Just because he's behind the Bible
doesn't necessarily mean that a straightforward reading of it will give us a
correct cosmic reference frame. The Bible is a human document. We accept
that God was behind the humans who wrote it, but exactly what that means is
not clear. We know it doesn't mean a straightforward reading will give us a
correct cosmic reference frame.
The necessary paradigm change involves recognizing that God is a sexual
person. One of his primary goals with his creation is to engage in a kind
of spiritual sexual intercourse with his people. A sexual partner is not
someone whom the lover grows up with, like a sister, but someone who has
grown up independently of the lover. That is why God's people come into
existence in a way that seems largely independent of him. One of Jesus'
primary roles is to make God attractive, so that people will want him.
Individual sins are probably less annoying to God than people have thought.
In return for her commitment to him, God is willing to overlook flaws in his
lover. His lover typically is something like the Church taken as an
organism.
God would not be very attractive if a short life span was all people had to
look forward to, so through Jesus he has assured us that this life is not
all there is.
God's sexuality does not mean that God is lust-driven. God has strong
desires and needs, but he never lets those dominate him. One thing God's
sexuality means is that the primary function of spiritual sexual intercourse
is quite other than procreation or recreation. Basically, sexual
intercourse
has psychological and spiritual meaning: It enables persons to redefine
themselves in one another and merge.
Don
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