Steven Jones:
I can see no point in even having a discussion with someone who rejects
outright the very possibility of my position being true.
Paul Robson:
Who does this ? Chris doesn't ; he just applies the analysis continually
to all religions, whereas you apply it to everyone except one.
Steven Jones:
Such dogmatism is just a form of extreme fundamentalism which closes its
mind against any possibility of disproof. It is in fact the very attitude it
professes to despise!
Although this has generally been off-topic, since Chris has raised it, I
will
post some of the clearest evidence of the existence of the supernatural in
the Bible involving predictive prophecy. Such prophecy is, of course, not
absolute proof, and those who deny outright the very possibility of the
supernatural no doubt have some ingenious ways of getting around it
(apart from outright `head-in-the-sand' denial).
For examples, in Micah 5:2, the prophet, living in QQ BC predicted that
the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem:
Paul Robson:
Only Christians think this. Only Christians think Isiah predicts a Virgin
Birth. It is very simple to do.
You have an old book, and someone you think is a Messiah. So when
you write his life story, you go through the "old book" looking for
paragraphs which can be made to look like "prophecies".
Of course, you don't always get it right, so people who write later
versions will amend your work to add corrections and push their own
theological viewpoint.
The "Bethlehem" is a classic example of this. Bethlehem is bunged
in *because* of this reference. That's why the two nativity stories send
everyone off in different directions "Out of Egypt...." "He shall be called
a Nazarene...." etc etc.
Steven Jones:
In Daniel 9:25-27 there is a prediction that works out to the very year 27
AD when Jesus began his public ministry:
Paul Robson:
Really. I am amazed you don't know the history of this one.
Or perhaps you do and didn't want to mention it.
Notwithstanding the minor details that there are about 4 or 5 decrees,
3-4 ways of counting the years, and several target points. This one,
I believe, uses the 360 day years to hit its target.
Christians are when making this claim for some reason unwilling to
mention these minor details.
It is difficult to say for sure because Christian apologists have been
so staggeringly dishonest over his particular passage it's difficult to
know which you copied.
Steven Jones:
Here is what theologian Robert C. Newman (who is also an astrophysicist
and a leader of the ID movement) writes about this:
[snip]
There has been considerable argument about the interpretation of this
passage. 30 A very reasonable interpretation, however, notes the
significance of a decree issued by the Persian king Artaxerxes I during his
twentieth year (445 B.C.). This edict officially approved Nehemiah's return
to Jerusalem to rebuild its walls (Neh 2:1-9)
Paul Robson:
This is not true. This is in Nehemiah 2:1-6 and refers to giving Nehemiah
letters of safe conduct. The decree to rebuild is in 2 Chronicles 36:22-23
and Ezra 1:1-4, but is in 538BC.
Using 445BC comes out at 39AD anyway, which is why the cheat of
360 day years is used, and here it comes.
Steve Jones (quoting):
The "sevens" of Daniel 9 (open translated "weeks") most likely refer to
the recurring seven-year sabbatical cycle for land use, 31 since
sixty-nine weeks of days would have run out before Daniel's prophecy
could even have been circulated, and these weeks of years were an
established institution in Israel. Using these cycles as units of
measurement, the sixty-ninth such cycle (7 + 62),
measured from the starting point of 445 B.C., spans the years A.D. 28-35.
Paul Robson:
Nope, he hasn't mentioned it. Surprise.
Steve Jones: (quoting)
One cannot help but note with interest that on this analysis the "Anointed
One" is "cut off" precisely when Jesus is crucified!
Paul Robson:
Well, I thought Jesus Ministry lasted four years, and most crucifixion
dates are 32-33AD (though every date between 20 and 60 seems to
have been pushed at some time).
Steve Jones:
So the only Jew claiming to be Messiah
Paul Robson:
Really ?
Steve Jones:
who has inaugurated a world
religion of predominantly Gentile adherents was cut off precisely when
Daniel predicted!
Paul Robson:
Odd definition of precise. Well, actually it's a fib, given that as any
fule kno we don't know when Jesus was crucified.
Steve Jones:
And the significance Christians ascribe to Jesus' death is
given by Daniel-"to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for
wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness." As it happens, Jesus
Christ is also one of the most significant figures in world history, as even
secular historians acknowledge.
Paul Robson:
Not really. It depends what you mean. Christians are significant, but
Christ himself is not as a person. It is only his effects that are
significant.
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