At 04:01 PM 10/21/2000 +0800, you wrote:
>Reflectorites
>
>On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:53:12 EDT, Bertvan@aol.com wrote:
>
>BV>Although DNAunion didn't say anything more abusive than I've heard from
> >Darwinists, I was also bothered by DNAunion's name calling. In my
> judgement such
> >practice is more common among Darwinists than among ID supporters.
Stephen:
>Agreed, he let the side down badly.
>
>BV>It would
> >be hard to imagine more personal attack than what passes for debate on
> Talk
> >Origins. Stephen doesn't question anyone's motives, intelligence,
> honesty or
> >sincerely. He does question people's philosophy.
>
>Stephen:
>Agreed. These issues are not really rocket science. They are 99%
>philosophy. The
>problem with some of those on the Evolution side is they seem to be
>unaware that they
>even *have* a philosophy.
Though there *is* something called philosophy of science. Anyone holding
any philosophy can look at the evidence. Those on the evolution side have
the evidence.
>BV>I believe one philosophy
> >is more valid than another, but personal judgement is the only means of
> >distinguishing that validity, so I grant everyone's right to develop their
> >own philosophy.
>
>So do I, I hasten to add.
and I. And almost everyone. This is Bertvan's pet straw man.
>BV>Although I am not in agreement with Phillip Johnson's
> >politics or religion, I do agree that Darwinism (chance mutation and
> natural
> >selection as the designer of life's complexity) has been an attempt to
> impose
> >materialism upon society as TRUTH. I am grateful for those who have spoken
> >out against it.
>
>Yes. It is really the equivalent of the State Church of Gallileo's day.
>Johnson has pointed out the irony that the NAS is behaving towards
>the ID movement exactly as the College of Cardinals acted towards
>Gallileo. Gallileo was not challenging the Bible, as the myth would
>have it, but the prevailing scientific *philosophy* of his day. They
>refused to look at the evidence because it contradicted their
>philosophy, namely Aristotelianism.
Gallileo had evidence for them to look at. ID hasn't come up with anything
to look at. Dembski could have saved his position if he had laid his
evidence out on the table for peer review. Gallileo laid his evidence out
and it gained him a lifetime of house arrest. The two are not exactly
comparable. You, yourself, said we were going to have to wait a half
century or so before the philosophy was worked out and *then* evidence
would begin to pile up. That's just not how science works.
>BV>I disagreed with Darwinism long before I had personal contact with any
> >Darwinist. However Darwinists' lack of tolerance has caused me, an
> agnostic,
> >to feel distaste for materialists, and atheists in particular.
>
>I am sure this is true of a lot of people. As ID gathers strength the
>Darwinists arrogant attitude is going to play into their hands. A lot of
>people can't understand the details, but they know what a threatened power-
>elite that is trying desperately to hang on to power by any means looks like,
>because they have had plenty of practice spotting those!
ID will never gather strength until there is some evidence for critiquing
and peer review. Mere assertions about "philosophy" isn't going to get
IDists anywhere.
>[...]
>
>BV>PS
> >I actually know some extremely tolerant materialists, but they don't happen
> >to be trying to promote Darwinism.
>
>There may even be some tolerant Darwinists, but I haven't come across any.
>Maybe there isn't because Darwinism depends more on dismissing other
>arguments than establishing their own (see tagline).
we have a definite pot/kettle problem here!!! :-)
Susan
--------
Always ask. Hang out with people who make you laugh. Love as many people as
you can. Read everything you can get your hands on. Take frequent naps.
Watch as little television as you can stand. Tell people what you want. Do
what you love as much as you can. Dance every day.
--------
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http://www.telepath.com/susanb
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