this is reposted, with permission, from the evolutioncreationdebate list.
It touches on some of the conversations I've had with Bertvan.
Susan
>atomicbohr wrote:
> >Michael, There are probably no valid reasons to
> >reject evolutionary theory in the scientific meaning
> >of the word since you are correct that there is no
> >scientifically useful replacement. But to admit
> >that is not the same as saying because this is so,
> >we should not be talking about some of the huge
> >problems in evolutionary theory as it is now
> >constructed.
>
>Michael Suttkus:
>Well, I haven't found any "huge problems", but there
>are certainly many small problems that can be usefully
>discussed and debated. If there weren't, we wouldn't
>need biologists actively working in the field.
>
>However, this forum is about the creation/evolution
>debate. Presenting problems with one side is
>insufficient to make a case for the other. You have
>to take a preponderance of the evidence (that is, if
>you plan on paying attention to evidence at all, more
>about this later in my response). Currently, the
>preponderance of the evidence is in favor of
>evolution/common descent.
>
>atomicbohr:
> >If people want to follow the "God of the Gaps"
> >route, it is their choice.
>
>Michael Suttkus:
>Certainly true. You can believe anything you want,
>even, *gasp* something I consider foolish and stupid.
>
>If you want to believe that all life was sneezed out
>of the galactic duck thanks to the holy rhinovirus, go
>right ahead. Found a cult, ban tissue paper as
>heretical, and live in a commune somewhere glorifying
>the value of mucus. I'll giggle, but I will never
>infringe upon your right to be as ignorant as you want
>to be.
>
>However, there are two points you appear to be
>missing.
>
>1. This is a debate list, not an announcement list.
>I have no interest in joining a list, the sole
>function of which is to allow people to just voice
>their beliefs. That would get boring. The function
>of the list is to stimulate thought by defending
>various ideas. As such, if someone shows up and tells
>me that tissue paper is an offense to the celestial
>duck, I'm going to ask for evidence.
>
>2. It isn't just a matter of someone insisting on
>their right to believe something on religious grounds
>we're talking about. A number of creationists are
>claiming that their religion is, in fact, science and
>should be taught to to the nation's children in
>science classes as fact. This is purest bologna.
>However, I'm willing to run with it. If creationism
>is science, let's see some science. People making
>this claim no longer have the right to defend
>themselves behind freedom to believe. If they want to
>be science, I want evidence, I want a properly defined
>theory, and I want to know how they get around all the
>evidence contradictory to their position.
>
>atomicbohr:
> >But evolutionary "scientists" should not ridicule
> >every criticism of evolution as unwarranted and
> >misguided.
>
>They don't. Many criticisms are treated very
>respectfully. Creationism is treated with ridicule
>because it is ridiculous.
>
>atomicbohr:
> >Certainly. Dawkins notwithstanding, current
> >Evolutionary theory is as close to Darwin's original
> >theory as Relativity is to Newtonian Mechanics. The
> >main difference between what has happened in Physics
> >and what has happened in Evolutionary theory is
> >Physics is much more exact. For instance, there
> >were and are huge problems with the gradualism that
> >is a mainstay of Darwin's (as opposed to his
> >successors') original theory. Punctuated
> >equilibrium comes along and saves the day. But is
> >it theory or metaphor. What is its predictive value
> >as opposed to its ability to explain away the
> >problems of gradualism?
>
>Michael Suttkus:
>If PE doesn't make predictions, then why are all those
>paleontologists claiming that the fossil record
>doesn't completely fulfill those predictions? It was
>being discussed on t.o a few weeks back. Admittedly,
>the details were well over my head, but the just was
>that the latest study of fossil speciation wasn't
>matching what they expected. Oh, boy! Back to the
>drawing boards!
>
>atomicbohr:
> >Does this mean I am an antievolutionist, or heaven
> >forbid a closet creationist?
>
>Michael Suttkus:
>I'm a closet creationist! All closets were created!
>There is evidence of intelligently designed closets!
>
> >Nope, it only means I am sick of "scientists"
> >ridiculing and marginalizing people who ask valid
> >questions. Or questioning the motives of people who
> >have a right to be skeptical.
>Michael Suttkus:
>I see lots of questions from creationists, but little
>skepticism. Skepticism is not just questioning, you
>know. Skepticism can basically be summed up in to
>sentences: "Oh yeah? Show me!"
>
>Creationists, in general, are not skeptics. They have
>no interest in questioning, which implies an
>open-minded interest in the answers. They are
>naysayers and self-styled debunkers. They want to
>challenge and have evolution come up short. This
>doesn't happen very often, because they don't seem to
>understand it well enough to actually point to any of
>the holes that really do exist. Instead we get
>nonsense about thermodynamics and whatever jabby is
>drooling today.
>
>If they were truly skeptical, they'd be skeptical of
>creationism as well. They'd be interested in my
>"Unanswered Questions" file and either answer them or
>admit that creationism wasn't well supported. This is
>not what we see. They are not being skeptical of
>evolution. Far from it.
>
>Now, people certainly have a right to be skeptical of
>evolution, science in general, and anything else
>someone hands you on a platter and expects you to
>believe (not, actually, that I see science as doing
>this, but that's another conversation). But I want to
>see skepticism, not naysaying and willful denial of
>facts.
--------
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you can. Read everything you can get your hands on. Take frequent naps.
Watch as little television as you can stand. Tell people what you want. Do
what you love as much as you can. Dance every day.
--------
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