Re: Examples of natural selection generating CSI

From: Ivar Ylvisaker (ylvisaki@erols.com)
Date: Mon Oct 09 2000 - 01:09:39 EDT

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    Paul Nelson suggested three references that imply calculations of
    CSI, two by Siegfried Scherer and one by Peter Rust. None of these
    references is easily obtained by me. I tried the George Washington
    University library for the first reference but they did not have
    issues of the journal that far back.

    However, I did find some information about Siegfried Scherer's ideas.
    I am appending some quotes at the end of this post.

    My reason for including them is that Scherer does not seem to be
    saying that he can demonstrate CSI. Rather, he seems to be saying
    that he has doubts that the theory of evolution can explain the
    emergence of complex life forms. He may be right or he may be wrong.
    I do not know much about molecular biology but I can see problems
    trying to verify his ideas. But he is not saying that he has
    "eliminated" Darwin's theory of evolution as an explanation for life
    as we know it, and, hence, that he can demonstrate Dembski's CSI.

    Ivar

    ---------------

    There is a chapter in Dembski's Mere Creation by Siegfried Scherer.
    In it, he states his criterion for "basic types": "Two individuals
    belong to the same basic type if they are able to hybridize" (page
    197). Microevolution is what occurs within a "basic type."
    Macroevolution occurs between basic types, i.e., it is descent from
    a common ancestor. Scherer goes on to write (page 202):

    "It is a major prediction of basic type biology that no molecular
    evolutionary mechanisms bridging the gaps between basic types will
    be found. Since we do not know enough on the morphogenetic differences
    between different basic types of animals and plants, this prediction
    cannot be tested using these organisms. However, at the level of
    bacteria, a little more is known. I have discussed possible
    delineations of microevolution versus macroevolution at the molecular
    level using bacteria as an example (Junker and Scherer 1992; Scherer
    1983, 1984, 1995, 1996), but this discussion is outside the scope of
    this chapter. My conclusion is that no molecular mechanisms
    accountable for macroevolutionary processes are known."

    And later in his concluding section (pages 208/9):

    "It is now necessary to test the basic type concept with as many
    animal and plant groups as possible. The results available so far
    (Scherer 1993c) seem to be encouraging. Critical test cases will be
    provided by groups that comprise a number of closely related families
    or subfamilies, such as Passeriformes. However, further work could
    also demonstrate that the basic type criterion submitted here will
    not hold up when it is put to test in daily classification work of
    practicing taxonomists.

    "Basic type biology or something equivalent to this approach will be
    a prerequisite to develop a theory of design that also accommodates
    the endless number of observations of microevolutionary processes.
    If basic type biology turns out to withstand the test of time, it
    will provide a framework for interpreting a variety of biological
    observations such as gaps between basic types, character distribution
    between the species within a basic type, character distribution
    between species of different basic types and the interpretation of
    seemingly odd features of life."

    While I have not seen a copy of Paul's second reference, Scherer's
    Entstehung der Photosynthese, ( which, considering my German, is
    probably a good thing), there is a description or, better, an
    advertisement for it on the Internet
    (http://www.wort-und-wissen.de/si/photosyn.html). I haven't used
    my German for over 40 years and I was never very good at it.
    However, with some help from Langenscheidt's Handworterbuch,
    http://www.freetranslation.com/, and
    http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn, here is a rough translation
    of the first web page:

    "Emergence of Photosynthesis

    "Siegfried Scherer

    "Are there bounds to molecular evolution? The author shows by
    concrete examples that well-known evolutionary factors have not yet
    been able to explain the emergence of new metabolic pathways. The
    book also deals with numerous criticisms.

    "Topic

    "The metabolism of bacteria, plants, and animals is characterized
    by an unimaginably complex, multidimensional, interlocking interplay
    of unknown numbers of biochemical reactions and macromolecular
    structures. At this time, it is unclear how organisms could emerge
    through changes in micro-evolutionary processes. The reason,
    perhaps, lies in a lack of knowledge about the structure and
    morphology of single- and multi-cellular organisms. The range of
    micro-evolutionary factors can only be estimated until the molecular
    details are sufficiently well known.

    "The photosynthetic movements of electrons in oxygen-producing
    cyano-bacteria and algae is analyzed in its molecular details.
    In this example, the author shows that evolutionary factors cannot
    at present explain the emergence of new metabolic pathways."



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