Re: "Apparent" Trap

From: Chris Cogan (ccogan@telepath.com)
Date: Mon Sep 25 2000 - 00:25:15 EDT

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    >
    >I still don't know why agnostics would be attracted to ID.
    Chris
    Because ID does not, in principle, require a supernatural designer as long
    as it is admitted that it might be possible for life to arise *somewhere*,
    *somehow* by naturalistic means, that life could be "the" designer.

    ralph
    >If there is an ID
    >with some sort of overall plan, then the history of life on earth is the
    >history of that plan in action. So far, the defining feature seems to be
    >extinction, in various degrees of severity. Why is extinction by chance
    >worse than extinction by design? I know you think if a species goes extinct
    >that's a sign that they were a mistake, outside of the plan. If that's true,
    >how do we know we're not "outside of the plan" and headed for eventual
    >"error correction"?

    Chris
    This is a good question, as is the question of why it is thought that life
    that exists at all *is* part of the plan. Perhaps the *plan* was that there
    would be *no* life at all, in which case, *all* life is "outside" the plan.

    Further, it would almost *have* to be a non-supernatural designer, if
    things *can* happen "outside" the plan? Bertvan is obviously biasing the
    conclusion in favor of her wishes, but there is no evidential reason for
    choosing one variant of design theory over the other, once she admits that
    something *can* be outside the alleged plan. I may as well note that her
    suggestion that something is or is not outside of some plan assumes that
    she has some knowledge of the plan that the rest of us do not have, despite
    the lack of any evidence for such knowledge (or that *she* has any special
    evidence for such claims). I commented on the sheer *egotism* of faith in
    my original post in this thread. This is just one of many examples of it
    from Bertvan. Phillip Johnson has also made similar claims, such as the one
    that FMA quoted:

             I do not think it worthwhile to discuss detail evidentiary questions
             with Denis Lamoureux, or with other person who [hold(?)] the
    postition
             I call theistic naturalism, or whatever they chose to call it.

    This is yet another admission by Johnson that his scientific case is
    essentially empty, and that his position is held on faith, a faith that, in
    his egotistical fervor, he wishes to foist off onto America's school
    children. Magically, *his* faith is to be accepted as correct, despite his
    inability to *actually* argue from the evidence. Why? Because it's *his*
    faith!



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