Re: ID: Design vs designer

From: FMAJ1019@aol.com
Date: Mon Sep 11 2000 - 00:03:21 EDT

  • Next message: Ivar Ylvisaker: "Re: ID: Design vs designer"

    There is something fundamentally flawed in the way that Dembski
    constructs his argument for design.

    Scientific knowledge advances through a process of proposing
    hypotheses, testing them, and then, based on the results, confirming,
    rejecting, or, most commonly, modifying them.

    This is not Dembski's approach. On page 68 of The Design Inference
    (TDI), he writes "Indeed, confirming hypotheses is precisely what
    the design inference does not do. The design inference is in the
    business of eliminating hypotheses, not confirming them." And in
    >>

    This presumes that one can eliminate all hypotheses, especially the unknown
    ones.

    a<< reply to Wesley Elsberry in this mail list, he wrote "Design
    inferences are among other things eliminative arguments, and what
    they must eliminate is a chance hypothesis (or more generally a
    family of chance hypotheses)."
    (http://www.calvin.edu/archive/evolution/199909/0383.html) His
    explanatory filter implements his eliminative approach. The filter
    eliminates all "regular" and "chance" events -- presumably, all
    naturally caused events, Dembski does not define his terms very
    carefully -- and labels as "design" any event that survives.
    >>

    Again this presumes that one can identify unknown hypotheses or processes.
    Wesely improved significantly on the "design inference" by adding this
    category. I have always wondered if the design inference would correctly deal
    with the times where people thought that circles of mushrooms were witch
    craft related.
    I would say that lacking the understanding of the natural mechanisms that
    create this structure and the specificity of this structure it would likely
    be misclassified as design. Until of course our knowledge increases and we
    realize that it was actually natural.

    << But his approach cannot not work. The problem is that anyone using
    the approach must identify "all the relevant chance hypotheses H
    that could be responsible for some event" (page 222 of TDI). (Note
    chance hypotheses can include regular hypotheses by setting
    parameters appropriately.) But how can anyone do this? It is not
    enough to identify all the relevant hypotheses that one knows. One
    must also identify all the relevant hypotheses that one does not
    know. Otherwise, some events that the filter labels as design will,
    in fact, be due to unidentified natural causes. One can not exclude
    the possibility that all of the events that pass through the filter
    will be due to natural causes. Obviously, such an imperfect filter
    is useless for Dembski's purpose, which is to show unmistakable
    evidence of an intelligent designer that might be his God. And, so
    far as we know, the number of possible hypotheses about natural
    causes is effectively infinite. >>

    Indeed that one must eliminate all natural hypotheses before one can infer
    design and that this requires that all hypotheses and mechanisms are known in
    advance makes design inference a tough sell.

    <<
    Dembski claims that there are real events that are "complex" and
    "specified." Complex, specified events will pass through Dembski's
    filter and, hence, are supposed to be design events. Dembski's
    examples include the creation of DNA, Shakespeare's sonnets, and
    Behe's irreducibly complex (IC) systems. But, Dembski has never
    explained in detail, step-by-step, how we can infer such events are
    design events using his explanatory filter (or using anything
    similar). In particular, he never lists all possible relevant
    hypotheses. He takes it for granted that his conclusions are obvious.
    But they are not. And, since Dembski cannot identify all possible
    relevant hypotheses, he never can apply his filter to anything
    interesting like these examples.
    >>

    I have to agree, complex specificity needs some careful definition and one
    needs to show why it would not lead to false positives.

    << If you think it obvious that Shakespeare wrote the sonnets, try
    applying Dembski's eliminative approach. I agree that an intelligent
    being wrote the sonnets. It was probably Shakespeare but this is
    controversial. But my reasoning is scientific. There is historical
    evidence of man called Shakespeare, the sonnets exist, we can observe
    today poets writing sonnets, etc. All of this persuades me that the
    sonnets are the product of a designer. What I cannot do and what
    Dembski cannot do is prove that the sonnets were not generated by
    some unknown natural process. Unlikely yes. Proof, no.

    Ivar Ylvisaker
    Engineer
    >>

    That seems to be the major flaw in the design inference. Also interesting to
    note is that the design inference can also not exclude a natural designer. So
    even if design is infered despite all the problems identified above, it will
    still not be able to state more than what we know without applying the design
    inference. In the instances were design is detected in science it is based on
    independent knowledge of the designers.



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