Randomness and complex organization via evolution

From: Bertvan@aol.com
Date: Sun Jul 16 2000 - 11:32:29 EDT

  • Next message: Chris Cogan: "Re: Randomness and complex organization via evolution"

    Chris:
    >Since the person who makes the claims of free will (especially
    >*indeterministic* free will) and design is making positive claims, the
    >burden of proof naturally rests with that person.

    >I do not deny that there is free will. All I deny is that there is
    >*indeterministic* free will.

    Bertvan:
    Hi Chris,
    I've been told that since I have no desire to change anyone's beliefs, I have
    no "burden of proof". I'm quite content for you, or anyone else, to believe
    free will exists, but indeterministic free will does not. I'm content for
    Dawkins to believe his version of Darwinism. I merely argue for the right of
    anyone to express contrary beliefs, without fear of ridicule or condemnation.
     If we all express our views, it helps others clarify their own beliefs.

    Chris:
    >I *do* deny that there is any evidence of design in nature. Design is not
    >merely order, not merely complexity, not merely structure or function. It
    >is these things created by a designer. How do you distinguish between
    >naturally occurring order (etc.) and *designed* order? And what would be an
    >empirical test for design that non-design could not pass?

    Bertvan:
    I'm not sure there is any difference between what you call "naturally
    occurring order" and what I call "design". You seem to believe it "just
    happened", but insist that is not "mystical". I have no idea where
    "natural order" or "design" came from, and regard its origin as extremely
    mystical -- meaning that I not only don't know where the it came from, but I
    doubt anyone will ever know. You don't know the origin of "natural order",
    but do claim to know for certain that no theist concepts were involved. I
    don't know how "design" originated and therefore can't rule out theism (or
    lots of other explanations). Like you, I regard some people's version of
    theism as na•ve and simplistic, but more sophisticated versions exist about
    which I have no opinion.

    Bertvan
    http://members.aol.com/bertvan



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