On Thu, 23 Sep 1999 23:33:14 EDT, Biochmborg@aol.com wrote:
>SJ>Before I get onto Johnson, may I add my 2 cents to this "outsiders never
>>contribute anything" thread? Apart from Darwin the theological student....
KO>Darwin was also a trained and experienced biologist when he signed aboard the
>Beagle; in fact he was more a biologist than he was a theology student.
Darwin He had no formal training in biology, except as a failed medical student.
If Kevin disputes this, let him state the details of Darwin's formal training in
biology.
If Darwin was: 1. not formally trained in biology, nor 2. did he ever hold
any university post in biology. In those two senses, Darwin was an "outsider".
>SJ>...and Lyell the lawyer....
KO>Lyell was also a trained and experienced geologist.
Lyell was: 1. not formally trained in geology; nor 2. did he ever hold any
university position in geology. Like Darwin's study of biology, Lyell's study
of geology was his private hobby. In the above two senses, Lyell, like Darwin,
was an "outsider":
"Lyell was the son of a naturalist and had an early interest in biology and
geology. He earned a B.A. degree at Oxford and then studied law in
London; he was admitted to the bar in 1825 but his practice of geology
soon took precedence over his practice of law." ("Lyell, Sir Charles", in
"Encyclopaedia Britannica", 15th edition, Benton: Chicago, 1984, Vol. vi,
p413).
"Lyell typified his times in beginning as an amateur geologist and becoming
a professional by study and experience." (Macomber R.W., "Lyell, Sir
Charles", Encyclopaedia Britannica, Benton: Chicago, 15th edition, Vol.
11, 1984, p209).
>SJ>...and Einstein the patent clerk....
KO>This is the most ridiculous example of all.
Translation: this is the *only* example where Kevin has even *half* a case!
KO>Einstein was a degreed physicist
>and mathematician who could not secure work in any university or research
>institute (possible employers considered him too arrogant), thus forcing him
>to take work in the patent office.
Kevin here concedes my two criteria that: 1. having a formal degree in a
relevant scientific discipline; and 2. holding a position in a "university";
are valid tests of being an "insider"!
Einstein had only just received his degree in the same year (1905) that he
published his first major scientific theories:
"Einstein earned a doctorate at the Polytechnic Academy in Zurich in 1905,
and in the same year he published four research papers. Each contained a
great discovery in physics: the special theory of relativity- the equivalence
of mass and energy; the theory of Brownian motion; and the photon theory
of light." ("Einstein, Albert", Encyclopaedia Britannica, Benton: Chicago,
15th edition, Vol. iii, 1984, p818).
Einsteins thus passed the first of my two-pronged test of being an "insider"
but fails the second. Einstein, at the time of the publication of his first
major scientific theories was, although recently qualified in physics, still
an outsider in the sense of holding no formal university position in the
relevant discipline.
KO>He was not, as Stephen implies, a simple
>civil servant with no formal scientific or mathematical training.
I said *nothing* about Einstein being "a simple civil servant". *Obviously*
"a simple civil servant" could not come up with the theory of relativity!
My sole point in mention that Einstein was a "patent clerk" was that he did
not at the time of the publication of his first major scientific theories
hold a university position.
>SJ>...what about Wegener,
>>the astronomer, the father of the modern theory of continental drift:
KO>Wegener cross-trained in geology later in life.
Attentive Reflectorites may have noticed that Kevin simply deleted the
following:
"Wegener...His career was not distinguished. He was not a recognized
authority in the then-central specialties in geology. His modest reputation
was grounded in meteorology, palaeoclimatology and polar exploration. He
did not hold a prestigious chair at a major university, attract throngs of
admiring graduate students, or win significant prizes or awards. Were we
to be writing a history of modern geology, in 1950 or even in 1960
Wegener would receive no more than a footnote." (Le Grand H.E., "Drifting
Continents and Shifting Theories", 1988, p37)
Even if Wegener had "cross-trained in geology later in life" that confirms
my thesis that Wegener was an outsider at the time of proposing his major
scientific theory.
Besides, AFAIK there is no evidence that Wegener ever completed any formal
training in geology, as opposed to private study. If Kevin has any such
evidence he should post it.
KO>None of these men were "outsiders" to the fields they made contributions in,
>since they were trained in those fields and did research work in those fields.
See above. That they all "these men...did research work in those fields" is
*obvious*!
But with the sole exception of Einstein, none of the others I named
(Darwin, Lyell and Wegener) were ever *formally* trained in the discipline
they made a major contribution to, and only Einstein and Wegener ever held
any formal university position, and that was *after* the publication of their
major scientific theory.
The point is that *at the time of proposing their major scientific theories*,
all were "outsiders", in the sense of: 1. not being formally trained in
the scientific discipline that their major theory was in; and not holding
any formal university position in that scientific discipline.
Einstein half passes the test by having just received his degree in the
same year he published his first major scientific theories. Einstein did
not hold a formal scientific position at a university until *twelve* years
later:
KO>What I would like to see is an example of an astronomer who knew nothing
>about geology, who had no training as a geologist, who did no research work
>in geology, who nonetheless made a contribution to geology that no geologist
>could have made. Wegener does not count; can Stephen find someone who does?
Having failed to make his case, Kevin here tries to make up a new criteria that
an "outsider" is one: "who knew nothing about" the discipline they proposed a
major scientific theory in!
This is self-evidently absurd. No one is claiming that Darwin "knew nothing
about" biology, that Lyell and Wegener "knew nothing about" geology, or that
Einstein "knew nothing about" physics!
Steve
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"It is perhaps clear to the reader that the genetic system is, in principle,
isomorphic with communication systems designed by communications
engineers. As a matter of fact, genetical systems have historical priority
since organisms have been using the principles of information theory and
coding theory for at least 3.8 x 10^9 years!" (Yockey H.P., "Information
Theory and Molecular Biology", Cambridge University Press: Cambridge
UK, 1992, p7)
Stephen E. Jones | sejones@iinet.net.au | http://www.iinet.net.au/~sejones
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