You wrote:
> Of course. For that matter, God could have talked to Moses about the Big
> Bang, Quantum Mechanics and Choas theory because with a little time (40
> years) Moses could have understood these. But did He? I don't see any
> science in Gen 1 that is not characteristic of the ANE. For that matter,
> it is typical of the ANE at that time.
So you are saying that what Moses wrote about creation in
Genesis 1 was his own opinion and not prompted by his mouth to mouth
conversations? Or did God explain things in terms of current science
to save time? Or perhaps you are just offering evidence that Genesis
must have been written by somebody with lesser revelation than Moses.
> OK. You seem to be alluding to some sort of concordist program. Stick your
> neck out and tell us about this "far more" aspect that Gen 1 conveys. If
> you are firm in claiming it is there, you've got to be seeing some of
> it. This is indeed a possbility, but you've got to give us some evidence,
> especially if you claim it is there.
> My suspicion is that your hermeneutics is demanding this "far more"
> aspect, and that it is not Gen 1 itself telling you. Fair? Unfair?
Since this is just about my last post to the list, I might as well stick
my neck out one final time.
I have attached a verse by verse list of my questions and speculations, but
my view of Genesis 1 is driven by some simple notions:
- There is a lot more to reality than what we observe. A comprehensive
description of the origin of the cosmos would likely refer to aspects
that we still know very little about [John 3:12].
- The `idioms' used in Genesis 1 are consonant with their use
throughout the Scripture, and in fact Scripture is itself the best
tool to use to interpret Scripture.
- Very often observable phenomena exist as visible signs of invisible
realities.
- Fitting Genesis to any current observational data is unimportant, and
likely to deceive (e.g. like seeing Revelation's scorpion-like locusts
as being helicopters, or the beast as a computer in The Netherlands).
- *All* Scripture is inspired by God and profitable. (This is what
you called my `demanding hermeneutic').
> > Then again perhaps we exaggerate the superiority of our own
> > intellectual context. Progress is relative. God laughs at us.
>
> I am sure He does!
And you have always demonstrated the good sense that we
too should be willing to laugh at ourselves.
> As always, a pleasure,
Indeed it always is.
--DaveQuestions and Speculations about Genesis 1 -------------------------------------------
Bear in mind that I haven't said I know what Genesis 1 means, I am onlytrying to demonstrate some of the reasons internal to the text that suggestspecific meaning to me, and thus answer your suggestion that I havedriven by a priori considerations.
> [1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
What are the heavens and how are they distinguished from the earth? Inthe Scripture there seems to be confusion between the visible heavensand the invisible. I don't think this confusion is accidental. Thevisible are `signs in the natural' of something more profound, even asthe tabernacle that Moses' constructed. I think this verse speaks ofthe creation of the domains of angels (spirits) and the domains of men(flesh), though at first they were not distinct.
[2] And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
I think 'formless and void' refers to the lack of imprinted purpose, whichagrees with the description as `darkness,' a metaphor used similarlythroughout the Scripture. The `deep' is also a repeated metaphor inScripture, but I don't have a handle on it. I also don't know what itmeans for the Spirit to hover. Waters often refers to the `sea of humanity'(the `sea' being done away with in Rev 21:1), but there is not yet a seaof humanity, so I do not know what this means here, unless it is a genericreference to sentient life, which includes the angels and other such beings.
[3] Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
I think this is metaphorical for God instilling purpose. Perhaps verse [2]really was speaking of God as aloof but poised towards His creation.
[4] And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
So He instills purpose, but that purpose is set apart within creation(a theme that also echoes throughout Scripture, e.g. John 3:19-22)
[5] And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
I don't know what is meant by day, night, evening, and morning, but Idon't think they are accidental. Day and night set a context forlight and darkness (e.g. John 9:4: We must work the works of Him whosent Me, as long as it is day; night is coming, when no man can work).
Light and darkness may also refer to physical light and darkness withoutlosing their metaphysical meanings.
> [6] Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
[7] And God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.
[8] And God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
This is really curious, and seemingly strong evidence that the author mustknow that he is not speaking of observable reality. [6] is not thecreation on continents, but establishment of a separation betweensentient beings. Yet the *separation* is itself called heaven. I don't(yet) know enough about the metaphysical structure of the universe tosay more. (Interestingly, the separation between heaven and earth willbe removed in Rev 21).
> [9] Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
[10] And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
Here the `waters' now speaks of water. Perhaps thismeans my view of it in [1-8] was in error, or perhaps the narrativehas shifted gears, or perhaps I just don't understand.
[11] Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, {and} fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth"; and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
[13] And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
This definitely sounds like the plain old vegetation such as any of uswould expect. However there is something significant here in termsof the metaphysical picture that I don't grasp. The vegetation is `real'enough, but I think its existence has a deeper aspect.
> [14] Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
[15] and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth;" and it was so.
[16] And God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; {He made} the stars also.
[17] And God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
[18] and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
[19] And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
This is definitely bizarre. The sun and moon and stars given after thereis already day and night? Though I don't understand the significance, Iknow that the sun and moon and stars are used metaphorically throughoutthe Scripture. Perhaps what is happening here is not their creation, butthe establishment of their dominion (like the power of the ground overAdam in Gen 3:18-20). Metaphysical authority is a significant issuethroughout the Scripture.
> [20] Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens."
[21] And God created the great sea monsters, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
[22] And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
[23] And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
Here heavens is the skies, and the waters are the waters. Though definitelya new metaphysical stage in creation, most of what I saw as metaphysicallanguage is now used to describe the physical.
> [24] Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so.
[25] And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
So here on the sixth day, the stage of animals being given dominion overthe dry land arrives. Including man, created in God's image (BTW Denis -why do you believe man is in the image of God if everything else inthe chapter is limited by ancient science?).
[26] Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
[27] And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
[28] And God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
[29] Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
[30] and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, {I have given} every green plant for food ";and it was so.
And he is given dominion (though a little lower than the angels).
[31] And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
These are all my musings. Clearly I don't understand this, but the firststep is asking questions. This is the way I started with the book ofRevelation, and I now think I understand quite a bit more than whenI started. Many of the pieces there now fit together. I am hopeful thatthe pieces to Genesis 1 will also one day fit together.
For now all I have is the following outline, showing a progression inthe granting of authority (dominion) over creation by God.
Day 1: God instills purpose in creation. (His purpose (i.e. logos) will be Holy).
Day 2: The heavenly and earthly realms are separated. (Man will dwell on earth).
Day 3: The earthly realm is separated. (Man will dwell on the dry land, and food is prepared for him, as he will be a vegetarian).
Day 4: Rule and authority is established in the heavenly realm. (The angels are created).
Day 5: The ocean and skies are given to their inhabitants.
Day 6: The dry land given to theirs.
The end of creation will be the summing up of all dominion and authorityin Christ, so it is not suprising that the Scripture begins with andescription of the establishment of the observed dominions.
--DaveFor by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth,visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers orauthorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him.[Colossians 1:16]