On Thu, 7 Dec 1995 vandewat@seas.ucla.edu wrote:
> Moore continues:
> >Try this correlation, evangelicals are up during the same time -
> >evangelicals are the cause. There are a lot more correlations one can
> >make, but I have yet to see any evidence of direct causal relationships.
>
> Now this is not true. Evangelicals are up in the last 10 years. This
> is an instance of put up or shut up. Show me your data showing a
> continuous rise in the number of evangelicals in the country over the
> last 40 years.
I have no problem admitting this came out of thin air (although I've seen
in claimed on many evangelical shows I watch on TBN). The point isn't
what I was correlating, but the point is that it can correlate to
anything you want. You must demonstrate a causal relationship. Now,
it's time for your put-up or shut-up. Demonstrate a direct causal
relationship of your own.
> >
> > But, hey, none of this is because we're teaching children that they are
> > glorified animals and that nothing they do has any meaning or consequence.
> >
>
> >No, it isn't. Why? Because evolution is still barely touched on in
> >schools. Some have more evolution theory than others, yet few have much.
> >Indeed, look at modern Christians. How many evangelicals are commiting
> >crimes? Remember Jim Baker? I think it's about time Christians start
> >looking for a real problem rather than beating up on science.
> >Christianity has failed us as a country - your argument about teaching in
> >school proves it. Christianity has access to America's children at least
> >5-8 hours on a week day and up to 16 hours a day on a weekend (which adds
> >up to around 3000 hours a year), whereas evolution theory has direct acces
> >to children maybe 100-200 hours in their school career (that is, at a
> >system that actually teaches it). It's time for Christianity to start
> >pointing their finger at themselves if Christians think they have the
> >answers. Christians shouldn't need to have access to schools to be able
> >to teach Christianity - you have plenty of time to do so. If the
> >children are not getting the message, it's the Christian's fault.
>
> Now this is a lie. Show me where the average American child is exposed
> to Christianity 5-8 hours a day. Further, Moore is neglecting the
> fact that evolution is implicit in everything from Isaac Asimov's science
> fiction, to nature shows on PBS and everything in between.
Evidently Rob can't read. I said Christians have _access_ to children
5-8 hours a day outside of school, not that they actually exposed
children to Christian ideals 5-8 hours a day outside school. That is
your failure because you are not using the time you have. Instead, you
cry about not being able to teach your religious views on other people's
children under a system that legally mandates children attend school.
If children aren't getting the Christian message, then it's the
Christian's fault. Indeed, there are plenty of Christian fiction out
there, there are christian tv shows. You have now even argued the
Christians have failed miserably by making such statements.
I should point out, so people don't misunderstand my point, that
Christians teaching their ideals is a _good_ thing, not a bad one. What
I'm saying is that there is something wrong with how people are
communicating those ideals. If Christians can only communicate those
ideals by using captive audiences, then there is something wrong.
Christians are failing to communicate, which is a bad thing.
btw, 5-8 hours is a range of time after school in which children can be
taught Christian ideals, 16 is a full day on weekends. These are the
hours Chrisians have access to children. Indeed, techinically in a
Christian home the hours would be greater still. 3000 hours is a
concervative estimate because I didn't count vacation. This also doesn't
count additional reading, etc, parents can send with their children to
school from them to do during their own time. So, with all this access
to children, why aren't Christians doing more?
>
> If you are just going to pull numbers out of thin air, Tom, I see no point
> in debating with you at all.
>
I await your proof of a causal relationship...
Tom
*****************************************************************************
*** Thomas L. Moore mooret@gas.uug.arizona.edu ***
*** Paleoclimatology Research Lab. mooret@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu ***
*** Department of Geosciences mooret@ccit.arizona.edu ***
*** University of Arizona ***
*****************************************************************************