On 3 Dec 1995, Jim Bell wrote:
> Denis L. writes:
>
> <<This is where you are very very wrong (I say this respectfully). It has
> been acknowledged for a long time in Old Testament scholarship that creation
> in Gen 1 is NOT ex nihilo, but creation out of a dark watery Chaos (v.2).>>
>
> And, with respect as well, I say this is not correct. There is not a single,
> orthodox theologian from centuries past who held this (you may be confusing
> the creation of the earth with the creation of the cosmos). Creation ex nihilo
> has always been the orthodox position, and still is today (see again the
> theologians cited). No doubt the 20th century has produced theology of a
> different stripe (this is true for numerous doctrines). But, historically,
> creation ex nihilo has been a core belief. I daresay, non-negotiable.
Jim please read my post again. Creatio ex nihilo is definitely the NT
position (eg. Heb 11, Col 1), and clearly the position of Christian
theologians, because they came into existence after the NT. But you must
realize there is a great difference between BIBLICAL THEOLOGY and
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Old Testament BIBLICAL theologians (whether
conservative or liberal) ALL acknowledge that Gen 1 is not supportive of
creatio ex nihilo. THAT IS A FACT, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD'S WORD
SAYS. It is not OT theologians (like myself) do not believe in creatio
ex nihilo--because WE DO. But it is to say, that the idea had yet to
develop by the time Gen 1 was composed. Therefore, we cannot go to a
text and look for an idea which has yet to emerge in the history of ideas.
Rather we go to the NT where it is very clear.
> <<Now, is this an creatio ex nihilo verse? Definitely. Is there a clear
> contradiction between Gen 1 and Heb 11? Definitely.>>
>
> I guess we operate from different paradigms. I say Scripture is not
> contradictory. This is a categorical difference, and one that probably cannot
> be resolved. But, once again, orthodox Christianity holds that Scripture is
> never contradictory. You won't find any theologians before 1800 saying
> differently.
Jim we both work with the very same essential tenet--the Bible is the
Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. We also base our life on
it. And we both share the power of the transforming Blood of the Lamb.
But here is the reality of the Text: Gen 1 is not supportive of creatio
ex nihilo, and the NT is. Go find anyone who has at least a year of
Hebrew and has done some work in Gen 1-11 and he/she will tell that what
I have told you is just basic "nuts & bolts" information--creatio ex
nihilo is not in Gen 1.
If one reads the Word of God, like one reads an organic chemistry lab
manual, be assured such "contradictions" (and in a way I wished I would
have used a different word, but I cannot think of one) will prove
undermining to one's view of the Text. But there is a solution. And it
goes back to Dennis D.'s comment that you firmly agreed with. We have to
be sensitive to the mindset of the original writers. Creatio ex nihilo
was not part of the intellectual furniture of the composer of Gen 1,
THEREFORE WE AS 20TH CENTURY READERS MUST BE SENSITIVE TO THIS FACT AND
NOT TRY TO FIND IT IN THE TEXT WHEN IN FACT IT IS NOT THERE.
Ponder on my aphorism: We can certainly sup with Moses, but we have to
leave the VCRs and tapes behind.
> Your comments also provided food for thought, Denis. Thanks!
And your comments are also very good and very helpful. Merci.
Good discussion Brother,
Denis
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Denis O. Lamoureux DDS PhD PhD (cand)
Department of Oral Biology Residence:
Faculty of Dentistry # 1908
University of Alberta 8515-112 Street
Edmonton, Alberta Edmonton, Alberta
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CANADA CANADA
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E-mail: dlamoure@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
"In all debates, let truth be thy aim, and endeavor to gain
rather than expose thy opponent."
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