Synopsis: Dave attempts to convince Russ that Dave is over the edge.
I wrote:
> > P.S. Conception in women by spirits is not unique with Christ, but
> > the other recorded instances all produced monsters (the Anakim, e.g.
> > Goliath). I find it interesting that Jesus was not a monster. Perhaps
> > this is a consequence of humans being in the image of God, not of angels?
> >
> > So, what did Goliath's Y chromosome look like? Anybody ever dig up
> > any 9 foot skeletons in the hills of Palestine and find any residual DNA?
Russ wrote:
> Dave--surely you do not actually believe that, besides Christ and our
> first parents, there were actually human births involving spirits?
> Of course, we've all heard of some pretty weird postulations in this
> matter. But I didn't expect to hear this from you!
Well thanks, Russ. I am glad you thought better of me, but yes, indeed
I find this conclusion inescapable based on the Scriptures.
I will sketch the central elements for your edification (or at least
your amusement).
One might want to squirm about the term 'sons of God' to avoid believing
that Genesis 6 means what it says:
the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and
they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. ...
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward,
when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore
{children} to them. Those were the mighty men who {were} of old, men
of renown. [Genesis 6:2,4]
but the 'sons of God' most often refers to angels (e.g. Job 1:6) and
Jude 6-7 makes it pretty clear that angels are capable of such things:
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their
proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the
judgment of the great day. Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities
around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross
immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example,
in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. [Jude 1:6-7]
To add emphasis:
Jude says that ANGELS WHO abandoned their proper abode and
indulged in GROSS IMMORALITY and WENT AFTER STRANGE FLESH, EVEN AS
the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah...
(Peter also writes on this topic in a parallel passage [2 Peter 2:4-8],
juxtaposing angels who sinned, the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah).
The Nephilim are not normal human beings, and being `mighty men ... of
renown likely speaks more of infamy than fame:
There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the
Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and
so we were in their sight. [Numbers 13:33]
(Joshua 11:22, 1 Sam 17:4, and 1 Chron 20:6-7 link Goliath to the Nephilim.
He is described as being 9.5 ft tall and having 24 fingers and toes.
Perhaps the men of Sodom recognized the two visitors as angels?
Maybe God sending them was a final examination of Sodom's evil rather
than a failure of His omniscience [Gen 18:20-21]?)
The later existence of the Nephilim (e.g. the Anakim) may have been
the result of the same abominable practices among the nations that
Israel was to dispossess [Deu 7:1-4], purging the land even of
the women and children [Deu 20:10-18]. One of the outcomes was
There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only
in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained. [Joshua 11:22]
The inhabitant's worship of demons went further than just idolatry (as
is the usual process of such things [Rom 1:22-26]).
Consider Deu 20:10-18. For cities that were not part of the Hittites,
Amorites, etc...
the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the
city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself;
Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which
are not of the cities of these nations nearby.
but for the nations that Israel was to dispossess:
Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving
you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that
breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the
Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite,
as the Lord your God has commanded you,
Why?
in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their
detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you
would sin against the Lord your God.
Most nations are full of idolaters. What was special about these
nations was: their detestable things which they have done for their gods.
The congress of angels with humans is such an exceedingly great evil,
that three occurrences (Genesis 6, Sodom/Gomorrah, and the Amorites)
were met with incredible judgment (the flood, the fire, and the sword)
and the angels who participated are kept in `eternal bonds'.
Why do you dismiss such a view as `pretty weird postulations'? Before
I accepted the text as written, I had to do some `pretty weird gyrations'
to avoid these conclusions.
There is far more direct testimony in the Scripture about this topic
than on how man was created.
I think this topic is by itself is pretty unimportant, but the approach to
the Scripture that automatically rejects such an interpretation might
be interesting to discuss.
--DaveP.S. Want to hear about the fire breathing monster, covered with doublemail? [Job 41:12-34].