Re: It's the early bird that fits the bill

Denis Lamoureux (dlamoure@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca)
Mon, 27 Nov 1995 01:00:44 -0700 (MST)

Hello Stephen,
I note you still express concern with regard to the evolution of toothed
birds to the modern situation in a post you have issued today. I am not
sure if my 15 Nov 95 post got to you, but just in case it did not here it
is again.

Blessings,
Denis

On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Denis Lamoureux wrote:

> Greetings Stephen,
> Greetings from the cold end of the planet! Your post on the "bird with
> teeth" caught my attention, especially
> since I was in Berlin at the Humbolt Naturual History Museum in September
and I
> had the rare privilege of seeing the fossil of Archaeopteryx that was
> discovered in 1886.
>
> On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Stephen Jones wrote:
>
> > Much is made of the fact that Archaeopteryx has teeth, rather than a
> > beak. The problem is that birds with beaks have now been discovered
> > that may have been near-contemporaneous with Archaeopteryx:
> >
> >
> > If birds with beaks existed "just a few million years after
> > Archaeopteryx made its debut", then if evolutionists wish to maintain
> > that Archaeopteryx is a transitional form between reptiles and birds,
> > it seems they must postulate either: a) a very rapid transformation
> > of teeth into a beak; or b) assume that Archaeopteryx dates from
> > further back in the fossil record.
> >
> > The problem for evolution with a) is finding a naturalistic
> > evolutionary mechanism that can transform a full set of teeth into a
> > beak in "just a few million years".
>
Denis:
> Respectfully, this is where I would quite disagree with you. No one
> familiar with developmental biology would ever say teeth are transformed
> into a beak--that makes absolutely no embryological sense. These are
> entirely different developmental processes and mechanisms. The
> transition postulated is very simple and could occur very quickly.
> First, we would need the lost of tooth forming ability in the oral
> epithelium. For example, the lost of the epithelial initiatory mechanism
> expressed early in development of the 1st branchial arch would be rather
> easy (An aside, this is an area I am dealing with in my current PhD as
> X. laevis [the South African Claw frog] does not have teeth in the
> mandible and I am in the process of doing some "cut and paste" embryology
> to determine why that is so). Second, the evolution of a keratinous
> type reaction in the oral epithelium and its selection would again not be
> all that problematic since that molecular program would be in place and
> all that would be needed would be its initiation.
>
> In light of my response for your first question, there is then no need to
> deal with your second question.
>
>
> One last comment with regard to the Archeopteryx fossil I observed in
> Berlin. For me it was quite a REVELATION (and as a theologian I quite
> use this word in its proper sense as "natural revelation") because I have
> spent the last 3 years looking at polyphyodont/homodont teeth
> (specifically, amphibians and reptiles). I was
> utterly stunned as I peered upon this creature's dentition--IT IS UTTERLY
> REPTILIAN. It has long been noted in comparative odontology
> that reptiles have a Zahnreihen spacing just a little under 2.0, and as
> a result they have back-to-front wave replacement at alternate tooth
> positions. This feature was clearly evident in this specimen--it just
> blew me away. To the best of my tooth knowledge, THAT IS A REPTILIAN
> MOUTH AND THOSE ARE REPTILIAN TEETH in a creature with definitive
> feathers.
>
> As always Stephen,
> Praising the Blood of the Lamb,
>
> Denis
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Denis O. Lamoureux DDS PhD PhD (cand)
> Department of Oral Biology Residence:
> Faculty of Dentistry # 1908
> University of Alberta 8515-112 Street
> Edmonton, Alberta Edmonton, Alberta
> T6G 2N8 T6G 1K7
> CANADA CANADA
>
> Lab: (403) 492-1354
> Residence: (403) 439-2648
> Dental Office: (403) 425-4000
>
> E-mail: dlamoure@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca
>
> "In all debates, let truth be thy aim, and endeavor to gain
> rather than expose thy opponent."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>