RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)

Bernie,

You wrote: "(The other issue is
> that I think the whole idea of atonement for sin to appease
> an angry God comes from pagan superstition..."

CHRISTINE: As a point, the Eastern Orthodox church understands atonement as only one small component of Christ's incarnation, crucifixtion, and resurrection. See here http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm and http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html for an analysis of how their views compare to Lutheran and Catholic perspectives.

You wrote:
"As I build my case against Christianity..."

CHRISTINE: It sounds as if you've now decided to stop listening with an open mind; you're just merely looking for ammunition at this point. If such is the case, then I will respectfully withdraw from further discussion. Best wishes, Bernie.

In Christ,
Christine

"For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7

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--- On Thu, 9/24/09, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Subject: RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)
> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 12:48 PM
> Ted said:
> "As far as I can tell from what people do write, at least
> what the philosophers and theologians write, I would say
> that two of the biggest problems are these: what is the
> "soul" (a biblical and theological and philosophical
> question)?  what is consciousness (a scientific and
> philosophical question that impinges on biblical and
> theological questions)?  Neither of those presently
> appears to have a clear answer."
>
> I understand what you mean and appreciate your feedback.
>
> I understand everyone has their strong points, but I also
> think everyone has their viewpoints.
>
> For example, with evolution, must people also don't know
> all the recent scientific evidence, yet they still seem to
> have an opinion (YEC, OEC, TE, etc.).  I think the
> idea/issue of the mind/soul is going to be another similar
> area of confrontation. And just like the evolution
> controversy, Christians have different understandings of
> soul, spirit, how it arises, what it is, etc. (as you said
> or implied).
>
> For me, this is one of the two biggest things that caused
> me to change my mind about Christ... so it is going to be a
> big argument for me going forward.  (The other issue is
> that I think the whole idea of atonement for sin to appease
> an angry God comes from pagan superstition... which is all
> about the study of ANE (Ancient Near East) manuscripts and
> ANE ideas.)
>
> As I build my case against Christianity, those will be the
> two foundations, I think... because it strikes at the heart
> of Christianity (atonement and resurrection).  The
> reason I'm building a case is because if I'm going to be an
> anti-Christ (but still a good person), I better have a good
> reason for it.
>
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Davis [mailto:TDavis@messiah.edu]
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:20 AM
> To: asa; Dehler, Bernie
> Subject: RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and
> apologetics)
>
> I respond very briefly to Bernie, below.
>
> >>> "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> 9/24/2009 12:28 PM >>>
> Ted said:
> "My own view is not fully formed; I don't know exactly what
> I think, relative to "soul" and the Bible, let alone what I
> think of consciousness"
>
> You say you don't have your mind made up.  Could you
> be open and honest and share what you are struggling
> with?  What prevents you from taking a position,
> specifically?  Is it just that you haven't thought
> about it, or do you see problems with no answers?
>
>
> **
>
> Bernie,
>
> It's mostly that I haven't thought as much about this
> issue/question as I've thought about some other important
> questions concerning science & Christian faith. 
> You attended the workshop at the Baylor meeting, and even
> there Deb and I indicated that we wanted to "pass" on
> discussing some of the things raised by the third of the
> Faraday DVD segments (the one on neuroscience), b/c neither
> of us had as much expertise on that one as some of the
> workshop participants (at least three of whom work in
> neuroscience or psychology). Speaking for myself, I have
> always been much more drawn to the physical sciences than to
> the social and biological sciences; psychology and
> neuroscience are not subjects about which I can speak with
> any confidence at all.  I have read some of the
> philosophical and theological literature related to "soul",
> but I have read none -- none -- of the relevant scientific
> literature.  There's only so much that one can do in a
> lifetime, and I doubt I will ever correc!
>
> t that deficiency in my lifetime.
>
> Are there problems without answers?  Well, I am in no
> position to speak about that, given what I just said. 
> On the other hand, if there were no problems without answers
> -- as yet -- then no one would be writing about this. 
> As far as I can tell from what people do write, at least
> what the philosophers and theologians write, I would say
> that two of the biggest problems are these: what is the
> "soul" (a biblical and theological and philosophical
> question)?  what is consciousness (a scientific and
> philosophical question that impinges on biblical and
> theological questions)?  Neither of those presently
> appears to have a clear answer.  Most philosophers and
> neuroscientists are committed to a materialistic answer, but
> that IMO is an a priori commitment and not a scientific
> conclusion.  We'll have to wait and see what
> transpires.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
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Received on Thu Sep 24 16:12:01 2009