RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)

Christine said:
"It sounds as if you've now decided to stop listening with an open mind; you're just merely looking for ammunition at this point."

Does 'building a case' mean I closed my mind? No. Think of the opposite- if I was not building a case. That would mean I have no good reasons for believing what I do. In building a case, I'm determining how solid the opinion is. By building a case, I can determine the weak and strong spots, and jettison the current opinion if I find a fatal flaw.

Prior to my de-conversion I also built a case for my Christian beliefs. Of course, back then the atheist also accused me of being closed-minded, in which my latest change of mind proved them wrong.

One of my role models is Charles Darwin, as he wrote about his views and laid out potential weaknesses, or explained which areas were weak and which ideas could overturn his theories... as if he didn't have a personal stake in them, or an emotional stake.

I like the question "What could happen for you to change your belief or admit you are wrong" and come up with good possibilities. So contrary to being closed-minded, I think the willingness to examine all the foundations of a belief system show that the mind is open. The closed-minded person is the one who says "I will always believe what I do no matter what you say."

I'm thankful that this list is loaded with those from academia because they seemed trained to look at all sides of an issue and not be so easily offended when their own opinion is under attack (unlike the general public). However, SOMETIMES they go too far the other way and cite all the differing opinions on something and don't feel the need to have their own opinion (and that is ok if they feel they don't know the answer; but not ok if they feel comfortable in that 'unknowing' and just embrace it as if it is an ok stopping point).

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Christine Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:11 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)

Bernie,

You wrote: "(The other issue is
> that I think the whole idea of atonement for sin to appease
> an angry God comes from pagan superstition..."

CHRISTINE: As a point, the Eastern Orthodox church understands atonement as only one small component of Christ's incarnation, crucifixtion, and resurrection. See here http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/Justification.htm and http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html for an analysis of how their views compare to Lutheran and Catholic perspectives.

You wrote:
"As I build my case against Christianity..."

CHRISTINE: It sounds as if you've now decided to stop listening with an open mind; you're just merely looking for ammunition at this point. If such is the case, then I will respectfully withdraw from further discussion. Best wishes, Bernie.

In Christ,
Christine

"For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7

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--- On Thu, 9/24/09, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Subject: RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)
> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 12:48 PM
> Ted said:
> "As far as I can tell from what people do write, at least
> what the philosophers and theologians write, I would say
> that two of the biggest problems are these: what is the
> "soul" (a biblical and theological and philosophical
> question)?  what is consciousness (a scientific and
> philosophical question that impinges on biblical and
> theological questions)?  Neither of those presently
> appears to have a clear answer."
>
> I understand what you mean and appreciate your feedback.
>
> I understand everyone has their strong points, but I also
> think everyone has their viewpoints.
>
> For example, with evolution, must people also don't know
> all the recent scientific evidence, yet they still seem to
> have an opinion (YEC, OEC, TE, etc.).  I think the
> idea/issue of the mind/soul is going to be another similar
> area of confrontation. And just like the evolution
> controversy, Christians have different understandings of
> soul, spirit, how it arises, what it is, etc. (as you said
> or implied).
>
> For me, this is one of the two biggest things that caused
> me to change my mind about Christ... so it is going to be a
> big argument for me going forward.  (The other issue is
> that I think the whole idea of atonement for sin to appease
> an angry God comes from pagan superstition... which is all
> about the study of ANE (Ancient Near East) manuscripts and
> ANE ideas.)
>
> As I build my case against Christianity, those will be the
> two foundations, I think... because it strikes at the heart
> of Christianity (atonement and resurrection).  The
> reason I'm building a case is because if I'm going to be an
> anti-Christ (but still a good person), I better have a good
> reason for it.
>
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Davis [mailto:TDavis@messiah.edu]
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:20 AM
> To: asa; Dehler, Bernie
> Subject: RE: [asa] (The Soul) (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and
> apologetics)
>
> I respond very briefly to Bernie, below.
>
> >>> "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> 9/24/2009 12:28 PM >>>
> Ted said:
> "My own view is not fully formed; I don't know exactly what
> I think, relative to "soul" and the Bible, let alone what I
> think of consciousness"
>
> You say you don't have your mind made up.  Could you
> be open and honest and share what you are struggling
> with?  What prevents you from taking a position,
> specifically?  Is it just that you haven't thought
> about it, or do you see problems with no answers?
>
>
> **
>
> Bernie,
>
> It's mostly that I haven't thought as much about this
> issue/question as I've thought about some other important
> questions concerning science & Christian faith. 
> You attended the workshop at the Baylor meeting, and even
> there Deb and I indicated that we wanted to "pass" on
> discussing some of the things raised by the third of the
> Faraday DVD segments (the one on neuroscience), b/c neither
> of us had as much expertise on that one as some of the
> workshop participants (at least three of whom work in
> neuroscience or psychology). Speaking for myself, I have
> always been much more drawn to the physical sciences than to
> the social and biological sciences; psychology and
> neuroscience are not subjects about which I can speak with
> any confidence at all.  I have read some of the
> philosophical and theological literature related to "soul",
> but I have read none -- none -- of the relevant scientific
> literature.  There's only so much that one can do in a
> lifetime, and I doubt I will ever correc!
>
> t that deficiency in my lifetime.
>
> Are there problems without answers?  Well, I am in no
> position to speak about that, given what I just said. 
> On the other hand, if there were no problems without answers
> -- as yet -- then no one would be writing about this. 
> As far as I can tell from what people do write, at least
> what the philosophers and theologians write, I would say
> that two of the biggest problems are these: what is the
> "soul" (a biblical and theological and philosophical
> question)?  what is consciousness (a scientific and
> philosophical question that impinges on biblical and
> theological questions)?  Neither of those presently
> appears to have a clear answer.  Most philosophers and
> neuroscientists are committed to a materialistic answer, but
> that IMO is an a priori commitment and not a scientific
> conclusion.  We'll have to wait and see what
> transpires.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
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Received on Thu Sep 24 16:46:31 2009