RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs (Cheek turning)

Iain said: "Isn't one supposed to "turn the other cheek"?"
  
Yes- and this is a perfect example. Others (Biblical or not): "Do not repay evil for evil." "Eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind." Also- guarding speech per 1 Peter 4:11 (a verse I teach my kids about watching their mouth).

As for YEC's who hop to other topics... that's ok. That's their way of recognizing they have nothing else to say on that sub-topic. Why not take that as a positive sign of one barrier removed and yes, lets move on to the next barrier?

I think another key is in what to expect. Don't expect them to say "Oh, I see, I give up on YEC and now beliece as you." It takes a lot of time and reflection. If it didn't, it would probably reflect that they are shallow thinkers. If they could be easily turned- they could also be easily flipped-back.

I've recently been confronting fellow believers at the Christian group in my workplace. They are likely shocked that I accept evolution, and I'm shocked of their YEC leanings. I thought they were at least OEC's or OEC-friendly. We start on all the basics- fossils, DNA, etc. I try to steer them esp. into the DNA area because I think it is the most solid evidence against YEC and for evolution. I've been introducing them to Francis Collins and his book, and even CS Lewis (who they know, but are clueless about Lewis' evolution-leaning- see his last chapter in "Mere Christianity" which I think it brilliant and insightful- deeply touching me).

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Iain Strachan
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 6:13 AM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: Michael Roberts; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

Isn't one supposed to "turn the other cheek"? Even to Michael?

That's my four today.

Iain

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:
> My post is commensurate to the insults I received. For your info, read the following, which I ascribe to and to no more. In fact, I am not a Seventh-day Adventist but an Apostolic Armenian,
>
>
>
> http://origins.swau.edu/mission/default.html <http://origins.swau.edu/mission/default.html>
>
>
>
> Our Mission Statement
>
>
>
> The Earth History Research Center is a non-profit, non-sectarian organization of active scientists. Our mission is to develop a scientifically credible view of earth history consistent with scripture, to conduct scientific research related to this goal and to promote our view through publication and education.
>
>
>
> Please, tell me where you see anything about the age of the earth or universe in that mission statement.
>
>
>
> Moorad
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Iain Strachan [mailto:igd.strachan@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sat 10/25/2008 8:16 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad
> Cc: Michael Roberts; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
>
> How ironic that not two hours after I posted a comment about the
> unhelpful nature of "ad hominem" attacks, that you should post one of
> the worst and most insulting ones I have ever seen. Boasting about
> the length of your publication list and accusing your opponent of
> being a "two-bit" scientist doesn't match up to my idea of a civilised
> debate.
>
> And despite your protestations of how distinguished a physicist you
> are (I don't doubt that), it would certainly appear that the Earth
> History Research Center is advocating a YEC position.
>
> Iain
>
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:
>> If you are not feeble-minded, would you kindly read the papers that appear in my CV http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html <http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html> . After you do that, you will have to shut your face and prove that you are nothing perhaps but a two-bit scientist, if not a two-bit charlatan.
>>
>>
>> Moorad
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Michael Roberts [mailto:michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk]
>> Sent: Sat 10/25/2008 3:03 AM
>> To: Alexanian, Moorad; asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>>
>> I refer to the website of the Earth History Research Center.
>>
>> I rest my case
>>
>> Michael
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
>> To: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; "George Cooper"
>> <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>; <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:54 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>> Michael, show me anything I have written or said that agrees with your
>> statement that I am a YEC. You will find none. That is your problem; you
>> assume erroneously and so conclude foolishly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Moorad
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Michael Roberts
>> Sent: Fri 10/24/2008 6:23 PM
>> To: George Cooper; asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>>
>> As Moorad is a YEc he is hardly liable to see YEC as a stumbling block -
>> which of course it is.
>>
>> I like your land of Silly but the main road out leads to the slough of
>> despond (and doubt)
>>
>> Michael
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "George Cooper" <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:07 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>>> Moorad said," I am not sure what are you trying to convince this gentleman
>>> of. Is there an obstacle for this gentleman to seek God's kingdom and His
>>> righteousness, which you are trying to remove?"
>>>
>>> Your focus is wise, but I struggle with this issue.
>>>
>>> In this case, it seems that Dennis' friends are the ones trying to
>>> convince
>>> him, since he said he is the rod (not the lightning). Yes, there is an
>>> obstacle. The issue is not some sidebar to the Roman Road, such as the age
>>> of the Earth, it is how far Christians (mostly "good" ones, too) are
>>> willing
>>> to push the Bible into the land of Silly. The sillier people make Genesis
>>> look, the sillier the Bible looks, and the sillier our faith appears to
>>> unbelievers. If the Bible is unreasonable or irrational, then we have a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> "Coope"
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Dennis Venema
>>> Sent: Fri 10/24/2008 5:00 PM
>>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>>> Subject: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>>
>>>
>>> I seem to be something of a lightning rod for YECs in my local church
>>> sphere. At present I am discussing these issues with a gentleman from my
>>> congregation, but I am not making much progress in having him try to
>>> understand my point of view. We can't even get past the age-of-the-earth
>>> issue. He is not interested in looking at any evidence, either.
>>>
>>> I am interested in what advice folks might have - I am especially
>>> interested
>>> in hearing from those of you who used to be YECs but now accept an old
>>> earth. What was useful to you as you made the transition?
>>>
>>> Thanks, all.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> -----------
> Non timeo sed caveo
>
> -----------
>
>
>

-- 
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Non timeo sed caveo
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