RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

David- you think v12 & v13 are metaphorical? That sure doesn't look obvious. If you think so, is that because the events haven't happened as they appear to have been forecasted, thus you don't take it literally?

...Bernie

________________________________
From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 4:53 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

That's probably metaphorical language Bernie. Check out NT Wright's "Surprised by Hope."
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> wrote:
Christine said:
"creation itself will be redeemed, so that tree which you plant today may yet remain when Christ's kingdom comes tomorrow."
I don't think so; I think it is all going to burn (see v 11-13 below). In this way, anything you do for the future is like arranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic- it is all going down.

2 Peter 3:1-13 (New International Version)

The Day of the Lord
 1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
 3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>] On Behalf Of Christine Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:53 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
Subject: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Hi Bernie,

You wrote:
"Luther was reported to say something like he believed Christ could return at any time, but he would also plant a tree (for the future). That's dualistic thinking- trying to hold two mutually exclusive thoughts at the same time- and agnostic thinking, practically, I think. (If someone is planting a tree, they don't really believe in the end of the world happening tomorrow..."

If memory serves, I believe Luther was answering the question, "What would you do if you knew that Christ would return tomorrow?". And again, if memory serves, the answer "plant a tree" was his response because 1) this was in fulfillment of God's original command to keep and till the garden (steward of the earth), and 2) because planning for the future is a symbol of hope, just as (I think it was?) Jeremiah went and bought a field even as Israel was about to be sent into exile. To Luther's answer, I would also add 3) creation itself will be redeemed, so that tree which you plant today may yet remain when Christ's kingdom comes tomorrow.

I would also note, more to your main point, that at least for me (and many other Christians?), I would not characterize my feelings as "don't know/don't care" but rather "can't know/won't worry about it" in the sense of, "let's not get so preoccupied with trying to know something that we cannot know that we lose sight of what we're actually supposed to be doing right now (be the body of Christ and do God's work in the world). Perhaps that's what you meant in your original phrase, but that's not how it came across.

That's all for now...lunch break is over!
In Christ,
Christine (ASA member)

--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>> wrote:

> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com<mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
> Subject: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
> To: "asa@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa@lists.calvin.edu>" <asa@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa@lists.calvin.edu>>
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 10:43 AM
> Edward said:
> " And the mere fact that interpretations are necessary
> in order to either try to pull all the loose strings
> together or acknowledge their looseness (the latter of which
> is my view), should make one step back and acknowledge that
> perhaps people are putting too much faith in their
> interpretations, especially since all these difficulties
> inherent in each interpretation arise from a plain reading
> of the texts themselves and have never been solved, not by
> prayer nor theological cunning. So maybe there's
> something to be said for agnosticism after all."
>
> In a way, I think we agree with you, only instead of
> agnosticism on the entire Bible and faith in God, it is
> agnosticism on certain issues, such as the imminent return
> of Christ. I see agnostics with an attitude of
> "don't know/don't care." In regards to
> the imminent return of Christ, many believers may profess
> they are ready for it now, but in practical terms I think
> they are "don't know/don't care." Luther
> was reported to say something like he believed Christ could
> return at any time, but he would also plant a tree (for the
> future). That's dualistic thinking- trying to hold two
> mutually exclusive thoughts at the same time- and agnostic
> thinking, practically, I think. (If someone is planting a
> tree, they don't really believe in the end of the world
> happening tomorrow... that would be stupid, like arranging
> the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic.)
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward T. Babinski [mailto:leonardo3@msn.com<mailto:leonardo3@msn.com>]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:02 PM
> To: asa@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> Cc: Dehler, Bernie; bsollereder@gmail.com<mailto:bsollereder@gmail.com>;
> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com<mailto:gmurphy10@neo.rr.com>; joe.degroot@gmail.com<mailto:joe.degroot@gmail.com>;
> muzhogg@netspace.net.au<mailto:muzhogg@netspace.net.au>; leonardo3@msn.com<mailto:leonardo3@msn.com>;
> christine_mb_smith@yahoo.com<mailto:christine_mb_smith@yahoo.com>; Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU;
> schwarzwald@gmail.com<mailto:schwarzwald@gmail.com>; pleuronaia@gmail.com<mailto:pleuronaia@gmail.com>;
> alexanian@uncw.edu<mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu>; dopderbeck@gmail.com<mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com>;
> jarmstro@qwest.net<mailto:jarmstro@qwest.net>; drsyme@verizon.net<mailto:drsyme@verizon.net>; heddle@gmail.com<mailto:heddle@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of
> Christ)
>
> A word to all,
>
> I've studied Preterism and Dispensationalism. The
> Preterists agree with me that the predicted time was a
> generation. The Dispensationalists agree with me that the
> coming of the son of man would equal the final judgment with
> the angels gathering the righteous from the world, etc. Put
> those two points together and you get the modern apocalyptic
> view that the Bible contains errors.
>
> Neither do you have to be a "skeptic" like Ehrman
> to note such difficulties. Modern theologians including
> James D. G. Dunn along with the host of scholars he cites
> also recognize such difficulties.
>
> Lastly, among Preterists, the Partialists and the Full
> Preterists don't get along. There's also different
> schools of Dispensationalism. It's all pretty wild. What
> I learned after studying such matters is that no matter how
> much you believe the Bible is inerrant, proving it is
> another thing, and nobody so far has claimed that their
> interpretation is inerrant. And the mere fact that
> interpretations are necessary in order to either try to pull
> all the loose strings together or acknowledge their
> looseness (the latter of which is my view), should make one
> step back and acknowledge that perhaps people are putting
> too much faith in their interpretations, especially since
> all these difficulties inherent in each interpretation arise
> from a plain reading of the texts themselves and have never
> been solved, not by prayer nor theological cunning. So maybe
> there's something to be said for agnosticism after all.
>
> "The Lowdown on God's Showdown"
> http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/
>
> N.T. scholar James D. Tabor lists "New Testament Texts
> on the Imminence of the End" on his website, "The
> Jewish Roman World of Jesus":
> http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/christian.html
>
> See also Tabor's article, "Dead Messiahs Who
> Don't Return: Millennial Hope and Disappointment in the
> Dead Sea Scroll Community"
> http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/deadmessiahs.html
>
> Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet (Minneapolis:
> Fortress Press, 1998)
>
> Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (New York:
> Oxford University Press, 1999).
>
> The Apocalyptic Jesus: A Debate (Santa Rosa, CA: Polebridge
> Press, 2001)
>
> The Stars Will Fall from Heaven: Cosmic Catastrophe in the
> New Testament and Its World -- (Library of New Testament
> Studies 347, 2007) delves into conclusive evidence for a
> belief in the end of the created world in works written
> either just before or during the N.T. period.
>
> In God's Time - The most moderate Evangelical book on
> the topic
> http://www.ingodstime.com/
>
> The video for the above book is even sold along with N.T.
> Wright's videos at this website:
> http://www.wesleyministrynetwork.com/
>
>
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