Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

That's probably metaphorical language Bernie. Check out NT Wright's
"Surprised by Hope."

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>wrote:

> Christine said:
> "creation itself will be redeemed, so that tree which you plant today may
> yet remain when Christ's kingdom comes tomorrow."
>
> I don't think so; I think it is all going to burn (see v 11-13 below). In
> this way, anything you do for the future is like arranging the deck chairs
> on the sinking Titanic- it is all going down.
>
> 2 Peter 3:1-13 (New International Version)
>
> The Day of the Lord
> 1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of
> them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to
> recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command
> given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
> 3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will
> come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where
> is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes
> on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget
> that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out
> of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was
> deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are
> reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of
> ungodly men.
>
> 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is
> like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not
> slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with
> you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
>
> 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will
> disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth
> and everything in it will be laid bare.
>
> 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people
> ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look
> forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the
> destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
> 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and
> a new earth, the home of righteousness.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Christine Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 10:53 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
> You wrote:
> "Luther was reported to say something like he believed Christ could return
> at any time, but he would also plant a tree (for the future). That's
> dualistic thinking- trying to hold two mutually exclusive thoughts at the
> same time- and agnostic thinking, practically, I think. (If someone is
> planting a tree, they don't really believe in the end of the world happening
> tomorrow..."
>
> If memory serves, I believe Luther was answering the question, "What would
> you do if you knew that Christ would return tomorrow?". And again, if memory
> serves, the answer "plant a tree" was his response because 1) this was in
> fulfillment of God's original command to keep and till the garden (steward
> of the earth), and 2) because planning for the future is a symbol of hope,
> just as (I think it was?) Jeremiah went and bought a field even as Israel
> was about to be sent into exile. To Luther's answer, I would also add 3)
> creation itself will be redeemed, so that tree which you plant today may yet
> remain when Christ's kingdom comes tomorrow.
>
> I would also note, more to your main point, that at least for me (and many
> other Christians?), I would not characterize my feelings as "don't
> know/don't care" but rather "can't know/won't worry about it" in the sense
> of, "let's not get so preoccupied with trying to know something that we
> cannot know that we lose sight of what we're actually supposed to be doing
> right now (be the body of Christ and do God's work in the world). Perhaps
> that's what you meant in your original phrase, but that's not how it came
> across.
>
> That's all for now...lunch break is over!
> In Christ,
> Christine (ASA member)
>
>
> --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> > Subject: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
> > To: "asa@lists.calvin.edu" <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 10:43 AM
> > Edward said:
> > " And the mere fact that interpretations are necessary
> > in order to either try to pull all the loose strings
> > together or acknowledge their looseness (the latter of which
> > is my view), should make one step back and acknowledge that
> > perhaps people are putting too much faith in their
> > interpretations, especially since all these difficulties
> > inherent in each interpretation arise from a plain reading
> > of the texts themselves and have never been solved, not by
> > prayer nor theological cunning. So maybe there's
> > something to be said for agnosticism after all."
> >
> > In a way, I think we agree with you, only instead of
> > agnosticism on the entire Bible and faith in God, it is
> > agnosticism on certain issues, such as the imminent return
> > of Christ. I see agnostics with an attitude of
> > "don't know/don't care." In regards to
> > the imminent return of Christ, many believers may profess
> > they are ready for it now, but in practical terms I think
> > they are "don't know/don't care." Luther
> > was reported to say something like he believed Christ could
> > return at any time, but he would also plant a tree (for the
> > future). That's dualistic thinking- trying to hold two
> > mutually exclusive thoughts at the same time- and agnostic
> > thinking, practically, I think. (If someone is planting a
> > tree, they don't really believe in the end of the world
> > happening tomorrow... that would be stupid, like arranging
> > the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic.)
> >
> > ...Bernie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Edward T. Babinski [mailto:leonardo3@msn.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:02 PM
> > To: asa@lists.calvin.edu
> > Cc: Dehler, Bernie; bsollereder@gmail.com;
> > gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; joe.degroot@gmail.com;
> > muzhogg@netspace.net.au; leonardo3@msn.com;
> > christine_mb_smith@yahoo.com; Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU;
> > schwarzwald@gmail.com; pleuronaia@gmail.com;
> > alexanian@uncw.edu; dopderbeck@gmail.com;
> > jarmstro@qwest.net; drsyme@verizon.net; heddle@gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of
> > Christ)
> >
> > A word to all,
> >
> > I've studied Preterism and Dispensationalism. The
> > Preterists agree with me that the predicted time was a
> > generation. The Dispensationalists agree with me that the
> > coming of the son of man would equal the final judgment with
> > the angels gathering the righteous from the world, etc. Put
> > those two points together and you get the modern apocalyptic
> > view that the Bible contains errors.
> >
> > Neither do you have to be a "skeptic" like Ehrman
> > to note such difficulties. Modern theologians including
> > James D. G. Dunn along with the host of scholars he cites
> > also recognize such difficulties.
> >
> > Lastly, among Preterists, the Partialists and the Full
> > Preterists don't get along. There's also different
> > schools of Dispensationalism. It's all pretty wild. What
> > I learned after studying such matters is that no matter how
> > much you believe the Bible is inerrant, proving it is
> > another thing, and nobody so far has claimed that their
> > interpretation is inerrant. And the mere fact that
> > interpretations are necessary in order to either try to pull
> > all the loose strings together or acknowledge their
> > looseness (the latter of which is my view), should make one
> > step back and acknowledge that perhaps people are putting
> > too much faith in their interpretations, especially since
> > all these difficulties inherent in each interpretation arise
> > from a plain reading of the texts themselves and have never
> > been solved, not by prayer nor theological cunning. So maybe
> > there's something to be said for agnosticism after all.
> >
> > "The Lowdown on God's Showdown"
> > http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/
> >
> > N.T. scholar James D. Tabor lists "New Testament Texts
> > on the Imminence of the End" on his website, "The
> > Jewish Roman World of Jesus":
> > http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/christian.html
> >
> > See also Tabor's article, "Dead Messiahs Who
> > Don't Return: Millennial Hope and Disappointment in the
> > Dead Sea Scroll Community"
> > http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/deadmessiahs.html
> >
> > Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet (Minneapolis:
> > Fortress Press, 1998)
> >
> > Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (New York:
> > Oxford University Press, 1999).
> >
> > The Apocalyptic Jesus: A Debate (Santa Rosa, CA: Polebridge
> > Press, 2001)
> >
> > The Stars Will Fall from Heaven: Cosmic Catastrophe in the
> > New Testament and Its World -- (Library of New Testament
> > Studies 347, 2007) delves into conclusive evidence for a
> > belief in the end of the created world in works written
> > either just before or during the N.T. period.
> >
> > In God's Time - The most moderate Evangelical book on
> > the topic
> > http://www.ingodstime.com/
> >
> > The video for the above book is even sold along with N.T.
> > Wright's videos at this website:
> > http://www.wesleyministrynetwork.com/
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
> > around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the
> > message.
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.