Re: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Hi Bernie,

You wrote:
"Luther was reported to say something like he believed Christ could return at any time, but he would also plant a tree (for the future). That's dualistic thinking- trying to hold two mutually exclusive thoughts at the same time- and agnostic thinking, practically, I think. (If someone is planting a tree, they don't really believe in the end of the world happening tomorrow..."

If memory serves, I believe Luther was answering the question, "What would you do if you knew that Christ would return tomorrow?". And again, if memory serves, the answer "plant a tree" was his response because 1) this was in fulfillment of God's original command to keep and till the garden (steward of the earth), and 2) because planning for the future is a symbol of hope, just as (I think it was?) Jeremiah went and bought a field even as Israel was about to be sent into exile. To Luther's answer, I would also add 3) creation itself will be redeemed, so that tree which you plant today may yet remain when Christ's kingdom comes tomorrow.

I would also note, more to your main point, that at least for me (and many other Christians?), I would not characterize my feelings as "don't know/don't care" but rather "can't know/won't worry about it" in the sense of, "let's not get so preoccupied with trying to know something that we cannot know that we lose sight of what we're actually supposed to be doing right now (be the body of Christ and do God's work in the world). Perhaps that's what you meant in your original phrase, but that's not how it came across.

That's all for now...lunch break is over!
In Christ,
Christine (ASA member)


--- On Tue, 10/21/08, Dehler, Bernie

> From: Dehler, Bernie
> Subject: RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)
> To: "asa@lists.calvin.edu"
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 10:43 AM
> Edward said:
> " And the mere fact that interpretations are necessary
> in order to either try to pull all the loose strings
> together or acknowledge their looseness (the latter of which
> is my view), should make one step back and acknowledge that
> perhaps people are putting too much faith in their
> interpretations, especially since all these difficulties
> inherent in each interpretation arise from a plain reading
> of the texts themselves and have never been solved, not by
> prayer nor theological cunning. So maybe there's
> something to be said for agnosticism after all."
>
> In a way, I think we agree with you, only instead of
> agnosticism on the entire Bible and faith in God, it is
> agnosticism on certain issues, such as the imminent return
> of Christ. I see agnostics with an attitude of
> "don't know/don't care." In regards to
> the imminent return of Christ, many believers may profess
> they are ready for it now, but in practical terms I think
> they are "don't know/don't care." Luther
> was reported to say something like he believed Christ could
> return at any time, but he would also plant a tree (for the
> future). That's dualistic thinking- trying to hold two
> mutually exclusive thoughts at the same time- and agnostic
> thinking, practically, I think. (If someone is planting a
> tree, they don't really believe in the end of the world
> happening tomorrow... that would be stupid, like arranging
> the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic.)
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward T. Babinski [mailto:leonardo3@msn.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:02 PM
> To: asa@lists.calvin.edu
> Cc: Dehler, Bernie; bsollereder@gmail.com;
> gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; joe.degroot@gmail.com;
> muzhogg@netspace.net.au; leonardo3@msn.com;
> christine_mb_smith@yahoo.com; Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU;
> schwarzwald@gmail.com; pleuronaia@gmail.com;
> alexanian@uncw.edu; dopderbeck@gmail.com;
> jarmstro@qwest.net; drsyme@verizon.net; heddle@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of
> Christ)
>
> A word to all,
>
> I've studied Preterism and Dispensationalism. The
> Preterists agree with me that the predicted time was a
> generation. The Dispensationalists agree with me that the
> coming of the son of man would equal the final judgment with
> the angels gathering the righteous from the world, etc. Put
> those two points together and you get the modern apocalyptic
> view that the Bible contains errors.
>
> Neither do you have to be a "skeptic" like Ehrman
> to note such difficulties. Modern theologians including
> James D. G. Dunn along with the host of scholars he cites
> also recognize such difficulties.
>
> Lastly, among Preterists, the Partialists and the Full
> Preterists don't get along. There's also different
> schools of Dispensationalism. It's all pretty wild. What
> I learned after studying such matters is that no matter how
> much you believe the Bible is inerrant, proving it is
> another thing, and nobody so far has claimed that their
> interpretation is inerrant. And the mere fact that
> interpretations are necessary in order to either try to pull
> all the loose strings together or acknowledge their
> looseness (the latter of which is my view), should make one
> step back and acknowledge that perhaps people are putting
> too much faith in their interpretations, especially since
> all these difficulties inherent in each interpretation arise
> from a plain reading of the texts themselves and have never
> been solved, not by prayer nor theological cunning. So maybe
> there's something to be said for agnosticism after all.
>
> "The Lowdown on God's Showdown"
> http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/
>
> N.T. scholar James D. Tabor lists "New Testament Texts
> on the Imminence of the End" on his website, "The
> Jewish Roman World of Jesus":
> http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/christian.html
>
> See also Tabor's article, "Dead Messiahs Who
> Don't Return: Millennial Hope and Disappointment in the
> Dead Sea Scroll Community"
> http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/deadmessiahs.html
>
> Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet (Minneapolis:
> Fortress Press, 1998)
>
> Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (New York:
> Oxford University Press, 1999).
>
> The Apocalyptic Jesus: A Debate (Santa Rosa, CA: Polebridge
> Press, 2001)
>
> The Stars Will Fall from Heaven: Cosmic Catastrophe in the
> New Testament and Its World -- (Library of New Testament
> Studies 347, 2007) delves into conclusive evidence for a
> belief in the end of the created world in works written
> either just before or during the N.T. period.
>
> In God's Time - The most moderate Evangelical book on
> the topic
> http://www.ingodstime.com/
>
> The video for the above book is even sold along with N.T.
> Wright's videos at this website:
> http://www.wesleyministrynetwork.com/
>
>
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