Re: [asa] Can God Love Darwin, Too?

On 9/12/07, David Heddle <heddle@gmail.com> wrote:
> My response had nothing to do with ID persecution. I have readily agreed
> that ISU was not out of bounds in denying tenure on the basis of a lack of
> acquiring external funding. My comment was about the ridiculous claim that
> if Gonzalez had been awarded tenure that all of ISU would be known as the ID
> university.

Where was that claim made?

> The point with Mirecki is clear enough: Is UK now known as the university of
> buffoons because of Mirecki's childish behavior?

You start with a strawman, you get the inevitable flawed conclusion. I
still do not get your point however.

> And is ISU to be known as the university where faculty organize petitions
> when an unpopular colleague gets close to tenure review, rather than allow
> the process to go forward in its usual private and unmolested manner?

Again you are arguing a strawman.

> You keep saying, as if it matters, that Gonzalez wasn't mentioned by name in
> Avalos's petition. Puh-leeze, you don't have to be Felinni to figure out who
> was in the cross-hairs.

Sigh...

>
>
> On 9/11/07, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 9/11/07, Ted Davis <tdavis@messiah.edu> wrote:
> > > >>> PvM < pvm.pandas@gmail.com> 09/11/07 11:35 AM >>>asks the following
> > > question, I presume not simply a rhetorical one:
> > >
> > > What about Baylor with Marks and Dembksi? Does Baylor have the right
> > > to protect its good name? Even with Gonzalez, does his 'academic
> > > freedom' somehow prevent others from expressing their worries as to
> > > how their institutional name is being used for poor science?
> > >
> > > Note that Gonzalez was not even mentioned in the petition although it
> > > was Gonzalez's work that was causing ISU to be seen as an ID school.
> > >
> > > Ted responds:
> > > No one's academic freedom prevents anyone else from disagreeing, even in
> the
> > > strongest possible terms, with their conclusions. To offer just one
> nice
> > > example, John Brooke, Alister McGrath, and Peter Hodgson all disagree
> > > vehemently with the atheistic interpretations of science advanced by
> their
> > > Oxford colleagues Peter Atkins and Richard Dawkins. Despite the fact
> that
> > > Dawkins has written simply incompetent, not to mention insulting, things
> > > about science and religion, none of his colleagues has organized a
> petition
> > > drive distancing their university from his work--whether or not he is
> > > explicitly named in the petition (which is frankly, Pim, a red herring).
> >
> > Your 'argument' is a red herring. Why should the fact that McGrath et
> > al have not filed a petition have anything to do with the question if
> > people can use petitions to object to ID as being a science. Several
> > universities have done this and many organizations have done so.
> > Gonzalez was not named, although his work was one of the main reasons
> > since it allowed the DI and the ID movement to use the name of ISU in
> > their promotion of ignorance.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/11/07, David Heddle <heddle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Pvm,
> > >
> > > "Note that Gonzalez was not even mentioned in the petition although it
> > > was Gonzalez's work that was causing ISU to be seen as an ID school."
> > > I think that's a bunch of crap. Maybe Gonzalez deserved tenure, maybe he
> > > didn't, but the fear that he would make ISU known as an ID school is
> > > nonsense. It would be like saying that Paul Mirecki has made the
> University
> >
> > And yet that is the petition that was signed. So perhaps your argument
> > lacks in fact?
> >
> > > of Kansas known as the school where professors post under usernames like
> his
> > > (Evil Dr. P.) and make childish comments like he did (talking about a
> nice
> > > slap in the big fat face of the fundies.) Fortunately for UK it doesn't
> work
> > > that way. One professor does not an institutional reputation make, so
> > > Mirecki has not made UK into an institution of jackasses.
> >
> > I have no idea what you are 'arguing here'
> >
> > > If one professor behaving badly could affect the reputation of the whole
> > > school, then Avalos has now given ISU the reputation of a univeristy
> where
> > > it is OK to use the cheapest, most unscholarly, most cowardly strategy
> (a
> > > petition) in an attempt to influence, in a very public way, what is
> supposed
> > > to occur behind closed doors (tenure review.)
> >
> > Again you seem to be reaching in your conclusions which do not match
> > the facts as we know them. But I understand your anger, Gonzalez made
> > for a powerful PR for the DI, too bad that this may have distracted
> > him from pursuing a path towards tenure. The fact remains that
> > Gonzalez was not awarded tenure for reasonable reasons of failing to
> > meet department and university standards.
> >
> > So back to the example I quoted, why should this be different from all
> > these other examples which ID claims as examples of 'persecution'?
> > Or, can universities indeed protect their good names as suggested by
> > Ted in his original response? Is academic freedom without any limits
> > and obligations?
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/11/07, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What about Baylor with Marks and Dembksi? Does Baylor have the right
> > > > to protect its good name? Even with Gonzalez, does his 'academic
> > > > freedom' somehow prevent others from expressing their worries as to
> > > > how their institutional name is being used for poor science?
> > > >
> > > > Note that Gonzalez was not even mentioned in the petition although it
> > > > was Gonzalez's work that was causing ISU to be seen as an ID school.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <quote>Avalos helped spearhead a faculty petition urging "all faculty"
> > > > at ISU to "uphold the integrity of our university" by "reject[ing]
> > > > efforts to portray Intelligent Design as science." Avalos later
> > > > conceded to a local newspaper that Gonzalez was the key motive for the
> > > > petition.</quote>
> > > >
> > > > and
> > > >
> > > > <quote>One of those authors, Hector Avalos, told The Tribune at the
> > > > time he was concerned the growing prominence of Gonzalez's work was
> > > > beginning to market ISU as an "intelligent design school."</quote>
> > > >
> > > > What I have found interesting is how academic persecution is so easily
> > > > claimed by ID in cases which suit their needs while they seem to
> > > > remain quiet on other similar cases.
> > > >
> > > > On 9/11/07, Ted Davis <tdavis@messiah.edu> wrote:
> > > > > The story Pim links is important. The president of Olivet was in a
> > > tough
> > > > > spot, given the views of certain constituents (no school can survive
> if
> > > it
> > > > > just ignores its constituents), and I understand his decision in
> that
> > > light.
> > > > > Our president (not our current president) made a similar call many
> > > years
> > > > > ago, banning the use of the film, "The Last Temptation of Christ,"
> in
> > > > > classes when important questions were raised over how it was being
> used
> > > in a
> > > > > couple of classes. I supported that decision. Obviously I am not
> close
> > > to
> > > > > the situation at Olivet, but I disturbed by the decision to remove
> > > Colling
> > > > > from teaching the general biology course. In the absence of further
> > > > > information (I stress that), this seems similar to what happened to
> Dean
> > > > > Kenyon, who was also moved out of teaching general biology when he
> > > became a
> > > > > critic of evolution. It's hard to know how to balance academic
> freedom
> > > with
> > > > > an institution's commitment to it's own understanding of truth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Going beyond anything in this story, I do not see much parallel here
> > > with
> > > > > the petition against Guillermo Gonzalez, who was not teaching ID in
> his
> > > > > courses. That one continues to be for me a black & white situation:
> the
> > > > > facts continue to suggest to me that Avalos was worried about
> Gonzalez'
> > > ties
> > > > > to conservative Christians, and sought to discredit him via a
> petition
> > > > > directed at Gonzalez' book, not his classroom teaching.
> Incidentally, I
> > > > > spoke not long ago with someone who signed that petition entirely
> > > without
> > > > > having knowledge of the context (I won't say more about that),
> someone
> > > who
> > > > > is not a theist but who has come to regret signing the petition, b/c
> > > this
> > > > > person now sees it as an unwarranted attack on Gonzalez' academic
> > > freedom.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ted
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >
>
>

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Received on Wed Sep 12 11:51:51 2007