Re: [asa] Can God Love Darwin, Too?

You are right, the claim was not that granting tenure to Gonzalez would make
ISU an ID university, the claim you made was much stronger, that Gonzalez
was already causing "ISU to be seen as an ID school."

One person's strawmen are another person's counter-examples, I suppose. I am
not sure why you can't get the point about Mirecki. To summarize:

One professor (Mirecki) writing like a 10 year old did not cause UK to be
seen as a university of prepubescent professors.

One professor (Avalos) attempting to improperly influence the tenure process
does not make ISU seen a university where professors engage in witch hunts.

Or, one holocaust denying professor (Authur Butz) does not cause
Northwestern to be seen as a holocaust denying university.

Spun positively, one Nobel Prize winning professor does not cause a
university to be seen as a school with a faculty of geniuses.

Likewise, one professor (Gonzalez) writing pro-ID books did not cause ISU to
be seen as an ID university.

On 9/12/07, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 9/12/07, David Heddle <heddle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > My response had nothing to do with ID persecution. I have readily agreed
> > that ISU was not out of bounds in denying tenure on the basis of a lack
> of
> > acquiring external funding. My comment was about the ridiculous claim
> that
> > if Gonzalez had been awarded tenure that all of ISU would be known as
> the ID
> > university.
>
> Where was that claim made?
>
> > The point with Mirecki is clear enough: Is UK now known as the
> university of
> > buffoons because of Mirecki's childish behavior?
>
> You start with a strawman, you get the inevitable flawed conclusion. I
> still do not get your point however.
>
> > And is ISU to be known as the university where faculty organize
> petitions
> > when an unpopular colleague gets close to tenure review, rather than
> allow
> > the process to go forward in its usual private and unmolested manner?
>
> Again you are arguing a strawman.
>
> > You keep saying, as if it matters, that Gonzalez wasn't mentioned by
> name in
> > Avalos's petition. Puh-leeze, you don't have to be Felinni to figure out
> who
> > was in the cross-hairs.
>
> Sigh...
>
>
> >
> >
> > On 9/11/07, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 9/11/07, Ted Davis <tdavis@messiah.edu> wrote:
> > > > >>> PvM < pvm.pandas@gmail.com> 09/11/07 11:35 AM >>>asks the
> following
> > > > question, I presume not simply a rhetorical one:
> > > >
> > > > What about Baylor with Marks and Dembksi? Does Baylor have the right
> > > > to protect its good name? Even with Gonzalez, does his 'academic
> > > > freedom' somehow prevent others from expressing their worries as to
> > > > how their institutional name is being used for poor science?
> > > >
> > > > Note that Gonzalez was not even mentioned in the petition although
> it
> > > > was Gonzalez's work that was causing ISU to be seen as an ID school.
> > > >
> > > > Ted responds:
> > > > No one's academic freedom prevents anyone else from disagreeing,
> even in
> > the
> > > > strongest possible terms, with their conclusions. To offer just one
> > nice
> > > > example, John Brooke, Alister McGrath, and Peter Hodgson all
> disagree
> > > > vehemently with the atheistic interpretations of science advanced by
> > their
> > > > Oxford colleagues Peter Atkins and Richard Dawkins. Despite the
> fact
> > that
> > > > Dawkins has written simply incompetent, not to mention insulting,
> things
> > > > about science and religion, none of his colleagues has organized a
> > petition
> > > > drive distancing their university from his work--whether or not he
> is
> > > > explicitly named in the petition (which is frankly, Pim, a red
> herring).
> > >
> > > Your 'argument' is a red herring. Why should the fact that McGrath et
> > > al have not filed a petition have anything to do with the question if
> > > people can use petitions to object to ID as being a science. Several
> > > universities have done this and many organizations have done so.
> > > Gonzalez was not named, although his work was one of the main reasons
> > > since it allowed the DI and the ID movement to use the name of ISU in
> > > their promotion of ignorance.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/11/07, David Heddle <heddle@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pvm,
> > > >
> > > > "Note that Gonzalez was not even mentioned in the petition although
> it
> > > > was Gonzalez's work that was causing ISU to be seen as an ID
> school."
> > > > I think that's a bunch of crap. Maybe Gonzalez deserved tenure,
> maybe he
> > > > didn't, but the fear that he would make ISU known as an ID school is
> > > > nonsense. It would be like saying that Paul Mirecki has made the
> > University
> > >
> > > And yet that is the petition that was signed. So perhaps your argument
> > > lacks in fact?
> > >
> > > > of Kansas known as the school where professors post under usernames
> like
> > his
> > > > (Evil Dr. P.) and make childish comments like he did (talking about
> a
> > nice
> > > > slap in the big fat face of the fundies.) Fortunately for UK it
> doesn't
> > work
> > > > that way. One professor does not an institutional reputation make,
> so
> > > > Mirecki has not made UK into an institution of jackasses.
> > >
> > > I have no idea what you are 'arguing here'
> > >
> > > > If one professor behaving badly could affect the reputation of the
> whole
> > > > school, then Avalos has now given ISU the reputation of a univeristy
> > where
> > > > it is OK to use the cheapest, most unscholarly, most cowardly
> strategy
> > (a
> > > > petition) in an attempt to influence, in a very public way, what is
> > supposed
> > > > to occur behind closed doors (tenure review.)
> > >
> > > Again you seem to be reaching in your conclusions which do not match
> > > the facts as we know them. But I understand your anger, Gonzalez made
> > > for a powerful PR for the DI, too bad that this may have distracted
> > > him from pursuing a path towards tenure. The fact remains that
> > > Gonzalez was not awarded tenure for reasonable reasons of failing to
> > > meet department and university standards.
> > >
> > > So back to the example I quoted, why should this be different from all
> > > these other examples which ID claims as examples of 'persecution'?
> > > Or, can universities indeed protect their good names as suggested by
> > > Ted in his original response? Is academic freedom without any limits
> > > and obligations?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 9/11/07, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > What about Baylor with Marks and Dembksi? Does Baylor have the
> right
> > > > > to protect its good name? Even with Gonzalez, does his 'academic
> > > > > freedom' somehow prevent others from expressing their worries as
> to
> > > > > how their institutional name is being used for poor science?
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that Gonzalez was not even mentioned in the petition although
> it
> > > > > was Gonzalez's work that was causing ISU to be seen as an ID
> school.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > <quote>Avalos helped spearhead a faculty petition urging "all
> faculty"
> > > > > at ISU to "uphold the integrity of our university" by "reject[ing]
> > > > > efforts to portray Intelligent Design as science." Avalos later
> > > > > conceded to a local newspaper that Gonzalez was the key motive for
> the
> > > > > petition.</quote>
> > > > >
> > > > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > <quote>One of those authors, Hector Avalos, told The Tribune at
> the
> > > > > time he was concerned the growing prominence of Gonzalez's work
> was
> > > > > beginning to market ISU as an "intelligent design school."</quote>
> > > > >
> > > > > What I have found interesting is how academic persecution is so
> easily
> > > > > claimed by ID in cases which suit their needs while they seem to
> > > > > remain quiet on other similar cases.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/11/07, Ted Davis <tdavis@messiah.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > The story Pim links is important. The president of Olivet was
> in a
> > > > tough
> > > > > > spot, given the views of certain constituents (no school can
> survive
> > if
> > > > it
> > > > > > just ignores its constituents), and I understand his decision in
> > that
> > > > light.
> > > > > > Our president (not our current president) made a similar call
> many
> > > > years
> > > > > > ago, banning the use of the film, "The Last Temptation of
> Christ,"
> > in
> > > > > > classes when important questions were raised over how it was
> being
> > used
> > > > in a
> > > > > > couple of classes. I supported that decision. Obviously I am
> not
> > close
> > > > to
> > > > > > the situation at Olivet, but I disturbed by the decision to
> remove
> > > > Colling
> > > > > > from teaching the general biology course. In the absence of
> further
> > > > > > information (I stress that), this seems similar to what happened
> to
> > Dean
> > > > > > Kenyon, who was also moved out of teaching general biology when
> he
> > > > became a
> > > > > > critic of evolution. It's hard to know how to balance academic
> > freedom
> > > > with
> > > > > > an institution's commitment to it's own understanding of truth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Going beyond anything in this story, I do not see much parallel
> here
> > > > with
> > > > > > the petition against Guillermo Gonzalez, who was not teaching ID
> in
> > his
> > > > > > courses. That one continues to be for me a black & white
> situation:
> > the
> > > > > > facts continue to suggest to me that Avalos was worried about
> > Gonzalez'
> > > > ties
> > > > > > to conservative Christians, and sought to discredit him via a
> > petition
> > > > > > directed at Gonzalez' book, not his classroom teaching.
> > Incidentally, I
> > > > > > spoke not long ago with someone who signed that petition
> entirely
> > > > without
> > > > > > having knowledge of the context (I won't say more about that),
> > someone
> > > > who
> > > > > > is not a theist but who has come to regret signing the petition,
> b/c
> > > > this
> > > > > > person now sees it as an unwarranted attack on Gonzalez'
> academic
> > > > freedom.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ted
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> > >
> >
> >
>

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Received on Wed Sep 12 12:14:51 2007