Re: Fwd: Fw: Eschatology and The Beginning

At 09:16 AM 4/24/2006, drsyme@cablespeed.com wrote:

>Anolther response from Kevin regarding
>continuity between the corpse and the resurrection body.

I believe there is strict continuity in the sense
that those bodies are numerically identical.
Echoing St. Paul, I believe that that which is
sown persishable, it is raised inperishable, etc.
Now, although there is numerical identity b/w our
earthly and resurrection bodies there is also
radical change. I take it that our resurrection
bodies will be able to do things that our earthly
bodies are not able to do, not because they are
numerically different bodies but because the body
is radically changed. Compare: your body (the one
you have now) is numerically the same body you
had 15 years ago, although it has changed over
the years. Indeed, there are good reasons to
believe that the body you have now is numerically
identical with the six month old fetus in your
mother's womb. It looks a lot different now than
it did then and it is made of completely
different stuff. Even so, I believe it is one and
the same body. (I give an account of what we
philosophers call "the persistence conditions"
for bodies in chapter three of the book.) So, I
take it that our resurrection bodies will stand
to these earthly bodies as this earthly body of
mine now stands to the fetal body in my mother's
womb. The resurrection body will be the radically
altered but numerically same body as I have now.

There you have my view, for what it's worth! It's
sobering to know people are thinking about this
stuff!!!! (btw: the essay "A New Way to Be Human"
will run in the November/December issue of Books & Culture. ~ Pax, Kevin

@ I don't know what he means by "numerical"
identity. And I would definitely disagree with
him if he denies that there is such a thing as
the human spirit that is naked without a body.

  "...the disembodied enter judgment (hell or
heaven) upon death. ... 2 Cor. 5:6-8: Therefore
we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we
are at home in the body, we are absent from the
Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We
are confident, I say, and willing rather to be
absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

"...The excessive legions
of
<http://www.tektonics.org/esch/hythere.html>Hymenaenism,
in order to maintain their view insist upon a
view of resurrection as "spiritual". This
position, also taken now and then by Skeptics,
can not and will not circumvent
the
<http://www.tektonics.org/lp/phyrez.html>contextual
meaning of resurrection in a Jewish sense. Not
surprisingly, an article we were asked to examine
from eschatology.org, titled Resurrection From
What Death?, only briefly and inadequately
touches on this contextual background, and
commits the same errors as Skeptics in performing
their exegesis. ..." ~ J.P.
Holding -
http://www.tektonics.org/esch/rezwreck.html -
Rezza Wreckin' --- On a Hyper-Preterist Take on Resurrection

Applied to the individual, the Semitic Totality
Concept means that "a man's thoughts form one
totality with their results in action so that
'thoughts' that result in no action are 'vain'."
[ibid, 60] To put it another way, man does not
have a body; man is a body, and what we regard as
constituent elements of spirit and body were
looked upon by the Hebrews as a fundamental
unity. Man was not made from dust, but is dust
that has, "by the in-breathing of God, acquired
the characteristics of self-conscious being."
Thus Paul regards being an unbodied spirit as a
form of nakedness (2 Cor. 5). Man is not whole
without a body. A man is a totality which
embraces "all that a man is and ever shall
be." ~ J.P. Holding http://www.tektonics.org/af/baptismneed.html

"....2 Cor. 5 shows that a physical body is in
view. "Now we know that if the earthly tent we
live in is destroyed, we have a building from
God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by
human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be
clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when
we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For
while we are in this tent, we groan and are
burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed
but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so
that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Now it is God who has made us for this very
purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit,
guaranteeing what is to come."

Here, Paul describes the earthly body as a "tent"
(i.e., temporary living structure) and the new
body as something that is a "building" built by
God, something that one is "clothed" with (the
verb in question has the connotation of "pulling
one garment on over another one" - Craig.ANTE,
151), something that the Spirit is a "deposit"
for! How much more of a suggestion of being tangible and material do we need?

Phil. 3:21Who shall change our vile body, that it
may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
according to the working whereby he is able even
to subdue all things unto himself. It is clear
from this little verse that Paul regards Christ
as now having a "glorious" body (soma). This is
clear testimony to a physical resurrection. ..."

"...a transformed body IS a "different body" and
would also, by virtue of exposure to the
cleansing power of YHWH, be called "undefiled"
. ..." ~ J. P. Holding http://tektonics.org/lp/physrez.html

*
Certain aspects of Paul's language are so clear
that they are an explicit indication ... of
transformation of the former body. Let us now turn to these.

It is the dead that rise. .. Paul repeatedly says
that it is the dead that rise. ...the language
used IS that of regeneration -- it is the dead
that are raised! The metaphor of death as "sleep"
fits precisely that of a body in repose. (Carrier
is also in error when he claims, trying to
correct Wright, that Paul would not call a
conscious state "sleep"; he neglects the nature
of the disembodied afterlife in Jewish thought as
a factor.) 1 Cor. 15:42-44 So also is the
resurrection of the dead. It is sown in
corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It
is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it
is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a
spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. ...

"...In the context of 15:42b-44a, Paul writes:

speiretai en fthora (it is sown in corruption)

eyeiretai en aftharsia (it is raised in incorruption)

speiretai en atimia (it is sown in dishonor)

egeiretai en doxee (it is raised in glory)

speiretai en asthenia (it is sown in weakness)

egeiretai en dunamei (it is raised in power)

speiretai soma psuxikon (it is sown a body natural)

egeiretai soma pneumatikon (it is raised a body spiritual)

Paul uses the verbs “sown” and “raised” eight
times in these verses. Note that even if we
exclude the last two statements (7-8; which is
verse 44), all of the others (1-6) represent a
clear case where the “it” (i.e., the corpse) is
implied in the verb. This is indisputable.
Otherwise, there is no subject in 1-6 and the
sentences make no sense. Paul is crystal clear in
1-6: “It is sown…It is raised.” ...

"...Paul goes out of his way to say that it’s
this present mortal body that will be changed:
“For necessarily this corruptible will put on the
incorruptible and this mortal will put on
immortality. . .” Notice the pronoun “this.” One
can almost imagine Paul grabbing his arm as he
emphasizes that it is this body that will put on
immortality as one puts on a coat. Paul is clear:
The corpse will be clothed with immortality and
imperishability. A transformation will take place
to our present body. .... [the] claim that
"wore" in "we wore the image of the one of dirt"
somehow suppresses the "idea of continuity"
because the "idea of 'wearing' our current bodies
is conveyed as more an event than a condition"
also fails to appreciate the radical nature of
the overhaul. ..." ~ J.P. Holding [more here]:
http://www.tektonics.org/tomb/carrier11.html

~ Janice
Received on Mon Apr 24 13:21:39 2006