In a message dated 13/11/00 05:36:46 GMT Standard Time, sejones@iinet.net.au
writes:
RW>There are two other possibilities:
>1. Jesus was aware of the prophecies and matched his actions to the
>prophecies.
Steve Jones:
This may in fact be true of some prophecies. The New Testament indicates
that Jesus grew up like a normal child and that he only gradually became
aware of who He was. A legitimate part of this becoming aware of who He
was and what was to do, may have been His reading of what the Old Testament
prophecies said the Messiah would do.
But as Geisler points out above there were some prophecies (like Mic 5:2 and
Dan 9:24-27) that were outside the power of Jesus or His followers to
fulfill,
unless Jesus was who He said He was.
Paul Robson:
Or unless the Gospel authors fashioned the story to fit the prophecy.
RW>
2. Out of many claimed messiahs, Jesus was the one widely accepted because
>the events of his life happened to roughly fit the prophecies.
Steve Jones:
Even if Jesus did only "roughly fit the prophecies" this would be
sufficient,
because there are *hundreds* of them:
"Biblical Predictions. Messianic Predictions. There are two broad
categories of biblical prophecy: messianic and nonmessianic. Payne
(ibid., 665-70) lists 191 prophecies concerning the anticipated
Jewish Messiah and Savior. Each was literally fulfilled in the life,
death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth ..." (Geisler
N.L., "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," 1999, p.610)
Paul Robson:
Why do people abuse the word "literally" so ? Presumably one of these is
Isiah 7:14 !
Steve Jones:
The probability of them all being fulfilled even "roughly" in one person
would presumably be *astronomical*:
"It is unlikely that all these events would have converged in the life
of one man. Mathematicians (Stoner, 108) have calculated the
probability of sixteen predictions being fulfilled in one man (e.g.,
Jesus) at 1 in 10^45. That forty-eight predictions might meet in one
person, the probability is 1 in 10^157. It is almost impossible to
conceive of a number that large." (Geisler N.L., 1999, p.613).
Paul Robson:
Somebody with the mathematic knowledge to get a Biology degree
should be aware that this is bolloxmath, as beloved of Creationists
everywhere.
RW>
In the case of the Daniel prophecy, however, it just sounds like post-hoc
reinterpretation of the prophecy to fit the alleged facts.
Steve Jones:
No. I produced non-Christian (i.e. Jewish and Roman) historical evidence
that the Jews were expecting the Messiah at that very time, and the only
prophecy there is in the Old Testament that predicts the time of the
Messiah is Dan 9:24-27.
Paul Robson:
And it doesn't fit !
Steve Jones:
See attached paper by physicist-theologian Robert Newman who improves
on the 360 day-year calculation by using the Jewish 7-year Sabbath year
cycles. This was actually mentioned in his the quote from him I originally
posted but I did not then understand its significance.
The combination of: 1) a reasonable terminus ad quo and method of
calculation;
Paul Robson:
It is nothing of the sort. It is a fiddle, based around factual errors.
Steve Jones:
2) confirmed by the historical evidence that the Jews were expecting the
Messiah at this time;
Paul Robson:
And were afterwards.....
Steve Jones:
and 3) the fact that Jesus came at that very time
Paul Robson:
Well, actually he *left* at that very time. Rather odd that a prophecy of the
coming Messiah should prophecy his death rather than his arrival, isn't it ?
Steve Jones:
and founded a world religion
Paul Robson:
It is questionable whether this was Jesus' aim.
Steve Jones:
; is *overwhelming* evidence that
Jesus is who He said He was - the Messiah!
Paul Robson:
All hail Appollonius !
Steve
[snip]
Paul Robson:
It amuses me that you quote a passage which brings up the same objections I
made,
to things which you think is reasonable. For example, the 360 day year.
Then,
"The command instituting the sabbatical year is found in Ex 23:10-11 and
Lev 25:3-7, 18-22. The Exodus passage reads: "For six years you are to
sow your fields and harvest your crops, but during the seventh year let the
l and lie unplowed and unused."
One has to wonder whether an open mind really sees this as a statement that
prophecies should only use 6 years out of every 7.
Here's how it works.
We think that Jesus was crucified about 32AD. We want to convince people of
the
truth of our belief, partially to internally validate our own belief. We
aren't particularly
bothered about how honest we are in doing this.
Oh, look, Daniel predicts the coming of the anointed one. Lets see 62+7
weeks ;
yes , we can make that years. (Rattle of calculator keys). Damn, it doesn't
work.
Let's see if we can find a way of making it work. Oh look, there's this
statement
miles away that suggests that 6 out of every 7 years can be used. And if we
couple it with this decree, which actually isn't a decree to rebuild
Jerusalem (but
that doesn't matter, the faithful won't bother to look it up) we can present
an
argument that looks good to the gullib.le.
Steve Jones:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is enough light to enlighten the elect and enough obscurity to
humiliate them. There is enough obscurity to blind the reprobate and
enough light to condemn them and deprive them of excuse."
(Pascal B., "Pensees," [1670], Krailsheimer A.J., Transl., Penguin: London,
Revised edition, 1966, p.73)
Stephen E. Jones | Ph. +61 8 9448 7439 | http://www.iinet.net.au/~sejones
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Robson:
101 Signs that a Christian is losing a debate
1] Resorts to threats of hell
2] Accuses everyone else but himself of being closed minded
3] Accuses everyone else of intellectual blindness.
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From: "Stephen E. Jones" <sejones@iinet.net.au>
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:02:54 +0800
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