[…]
>>>Richhard Wein: Anyway, it will serve as a timely example of how a
decrease in entropy does *not* require a "code-driven energy-conversion
system". There is obviously no such system in the Sun.
**********************
DNAunion: Which I already stated and gave several examples of increases in
order that do not require a coupling mechanism. But we are discussing more
that thermodynamics, we are discussing thermodynamics as it relates to life.
**********************
>>>Richard Wein: I think that, if we strip away the misleading talk of
"code-driven energy-conversion systems" and processes "overcoming" the Second
Law, what the objectors are really asking is this: what is the process by
which energy (e.g. from the Sun) drives a decrease in entropy in pre-biotic
structures?
As far as I can see, this question is not directly related to the Second Law.
I suppose it's indirectly related, because it concerns thermodynamic entropy.
***********************
DNAunion: Thermodynamics is directly related to life in bioenergetics. That
is what WE are talking about. More specifically, how bioenergetics got
started.
***********************
>>>Richard Wein: I think the short answer to the question is "through
chemical reactions (and possibly other physical processes) which require
heat." Without heat, the chemical reactions could not take place. Of course,
this doesn't just apply to prebiotic structures. There are all sorts of
inorganic structures whose entropy decrease is driven (directly or
indirectly) by heat.
*******************
DNAunion: Wouldn't the fact that one thing is DRIVING a DECREASE in entropy
in another things indicate that it is overcoming the tendency towards
increased entropy in the other? Hmmm….
*******************
>>>Richard Wein: Commonly cited examples are snowflakes, crystals and
tornados.
**********************
DNAunion: Here Richard, I help you out by giving you a brief statement or
two about some so that you can use them to refute anyone who says that order
cannot arise from disorder period, or even without a "coupling mechanism".
From my personal notes:
In discussions concerning difficulties in the abiotic polymerization of
proteins and nucleic acids, it is often pointed out that examples of order
emerging from chaos/disorder are common. Some frequently given examples
include:
(1) The birth of a star. During this natural process, undirected energy
(gravity) aggregates and compresses gasses, causing the temperature to
increase until they ignite (i.e., they undergo thermonuclear reactions).
(2) Vortex formation. When a reservoir of water is drained through a narrow
pipe (such as letting water out of a bathtub), the water molecules - which
begin as evenly distributed as possible - spontaneously form a more-ordered
arrangement called a vortex.
(3) Ice formation. When liquid water is exposed to temperatures below its
freezing point, the random motion of the individual molecules is reduced and
their average kinetic energy becomes too feeble to continually break the
hydrogen bonds (it is the continual breaking and reforming of the weak
hydrogen bonds that gives water it fluidity). Consequently, the hydrogen
bonds become very long-lived and the water molecules become ordered - their
motions constrained - resulting in ice crystals.
(4) Lipid bilayer formation. (This will be discussed in depth just below).
These offered counter examples supposedly demonstrate that "chaotic"
prebiotic chemical pools (jumbled molecular mixtures consisting of monomers
like amino acids and nucleotides) could have become "ordered" into biological
polymers spontaneously (some liken the proposed process to a phase change,
such as when liquid water molecules spontaneously change from a disordered,
higher-entropy state into the structured, ordered, and lower-entropy
arrangement of ice). Although all of the above examples could be dissected
and shown to be irrelevant, only the one most relevant to biology will be
critiqued. …
*********************
>>>Richard Wein: But they can also simply be molecules undergoing chemical
reactions to form lower-entropy compounds. If these can experience decreases
in entropy without a "code-driven energy-conversion system", then bviously
pre-biotic structures can do so too.
*****************************
DNAunion: What prebiotic structures? Ice? Snow flakes? Tornadoes? No
problem (I am not too sure about prebiotic snow flakes, but some, like
Jeffrey Bada, have proposed a snowball Earth ("Cold Soup") since the
luminosity of the faint young Sun was only about 70% - 75% its current
value). I would not argue one bit with anyone who states that snowflakes can
form without the assistance of "code-driven energy-conversion systems" or
"coupling mechanisms", either today or in a cold prebiotic setting. But
snowflakes are not cells. What won't anyone discuss what we are discussing?
What do the anti-IDists keep bringing up the *very simplest* examples and
proposing the same undirected energy transformations can account for the
*most complicated* thing in the universe?
*****************************
>>>Richard Wein: I hope David will correct me if I've got anything wrong
here. Sorry, David, but I hope you won't consider it a waste of time to
educate me. ;-)
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