>CC>Jones has even gone
>>so far (following similar claims by Johnson) as to claim that ultimate
>>starting points must be simply assumed, ...
>Indeed! If Chris disagrees how does he propose to arrive at an
*ultimate*
>starting point except by, in the end, assuming it?
Steve finally got something right, Chris finally got something wrong. <G>
Steve starts with God who does stuff. Chris starts with a real universe
which operates under a fixed set of observable relationships.
These views are not compatable and not resolvable by the Religionist
unless he chooses at least one of the following two options, maybe three.
First, one can compartmentalize the logical result of one's religious
belief to one's religious time and space. In other words, it doesn't
bother me to talk about the moral implications of Noah's Flood in Sunday
School and recognize Monday through Friday that there were many localized
floods which the local populations assumed to be universal because their
known universe was very small.
Second, one can assume that God created a perfect universe for us which
doesn't require micro-management of physical relationships for its
continued existance. God accomplishes his goals by spiritual -
metaphysical means and by applying (unkown to us) power and knowledge
within the physical parameters of his perfect universe. To change that
which is perfect is sinful.
Third, God could temporarially and occasionally suspend the perfect
relationships of this perfect universe, but I doubt it.
It should be obvious to anyone that the ancients, including the people
who wrote the Bible, did NOT believe in a real, physical world, but in a
spiritual universe in which our apparent physical universe is only sort
of a jelled projection. They saw God(s) producing and controlling every
physical phenomon including sunshine, rain, earth quakes, lightening,
thunder, etc.
(God produced an earth quake which rolled away the stone)
When push comes to shove, the only observable difference between miracles
and magic is the person responsible and the side which wins. For example,
Moses throws his stick and by a miracle God changes it into a snake.
Pharoah's magicians throw down sticks and they turn into snakes - our
guys do miracles, the bad guys do magic. Moses's snake eats the other
snakes. The side which wins the war writes the history books.
I suspect that people like Steve don't believe in a real universe but a
spiritual universe. Every grain of sand is where it is because God wants
it there, the energy level and vector of every quark is exactly what is
because that is the way God wants it. God could change everything. We
don't have a real existance but only exist in the mind of God. The only
reason Scientists can measure physical relationships and get consistant
results is that God hasn't recently changed his mind. In other words,
pragmatically, Christianity is existential and only theoretically is
Christianity different than existentialism - only regarding stuff that
can't be measured or counted.
Had a heated argument last night which I regret with a friend, also named
Steve, about the nature of the universe. He believes that since Adam's
screw-up the universe is cursed. Every atom, every quark is cursed. This
baffles me to tears. Are the physical characteristics of a cursed
electron different than those of an un-cursed electron? Would an
un-cursed electron and positron react differently than the ones we
observe? If the "laws of nature" e.g. the physical relationships we
observe are cursed then they must be in some way defective. What is the
defect? How could the universe be improved? The YECs never tell us. Oh,
yes, "God's ways are higher than our ways," thus we are to stupid to
observe the defect and/or suggest a correction.
When push comes to shove, curse=stuff turns out bad and miracle=stuff
turns out good. Every thing has a moral content and nothing is real.
Apoligize for rambling.
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Nov 08 2000 - 15:21:44 EST