<snip already discussed>
<< So 8 parts
are more effective then....nothing. I would fall off the mountain.
>>
FMA:
Using that analogy, all life is IC. Remove enough and it will stop
functioning. But it also ignores the obvious: indirect routes exist.
Nelson:
I don't see how your first or second premise follows from anything I have
said.
<< FMA:
If ID cannot identify the designer, merely design then it cannot exclude
natural forces as the designer.
Nelson:
This is a non-sequitur. You assume in your premise what you conclude, that
natural processes can make design. There are things only intelligent agents
can do and things natural processes cannot, foresight being one of them.
>>
FMA:
Now you are assuming in your premise what you conclude.
Nelson:
How so?
FMA:
You see, ID has done
nothing to show that intelligent design excludes natural processes.
Indeed,
they are proud to claim that ID says NOTHING about the designer. Therefor
they cannot exclude natural designers. If you can show a logical argument...
Foresight is only looked at in hindsight so you have to show that foresight
exists. But without a designer identified you cannot show this.
Nelson:
As you can see, there is nothing specific here for me to respond to. You
just keep repeating the same thing over and over but you give no reasons.
<< FMA:
That it requires 'intelligence' or 'design',
words that we would perhaps not easily attribute in the context of natural
forces is irrelevant.
Nelson:
That has nothing to do with any thing I have ever said. There are causal
patterns that are indicative only of intelligent design, not natural
processes. Complex Specified information is one of them.
>>
FMA:
Unsupported assertion. As Wesley Elsberry has shown CSI can be generated by
algorithms.
Nelson:
Example?
FMA:
It's up to the supporters of ID to show that natural processes
cannot lead to CSI. So far they have failed.
Nelson:
Please show me a natural process that produces CSI.
<< FMA:
So now we have several issues:
1. It has been shown that IC systems could arise naturally
Does this disprove Behe's IC thesis?
Nelson:
Since it has not been shown that IC systems can arise naturally, Behe's
thesis still stands.
>>
FMA:
Right.... And yet possible pathways have been shown but that is not
evidence?
Nelson:
Which ones?
FMA:
So far we therefor have: "Evolutionary processes have not been shown to have
resulted in IC systems, although they have been shown to potentially lead to
them". Based on this we infer design.
Somewhat loses it's scientific appeal doesn't it?
Nelson:
Only if you can demonstrate what you assert.
<< FMA:
2. It has been shown that even if design can be infered, ID cannot exclude
natural designers
Nelson:
No such thing has been shown, merely asserted.
>>
FMA:
Indeed, that ID can exclude a natural designer has been merely asserted.
Nelson:
It is not an assertion. If I give you all the parts of the flagellum, you
cannot build it step by step through functional precursors.
That
it cannot exclude it is admitted when ID'ers claim that ID says nothing
about
the designer.
Nelson:
Nope, they say it says nothing about the identity of the design(God,ETI,
whatever). And it doesn't. If you see a webpage without knowing who authored
it you would still conclude it was intelligently designed you just don't
know by who.
<< FMA:
So what is the value of ID then? It is infered based on the absence of
identified evolutionary pathways, it does not provide us with independent
evidence and it in effect claims that an unindentified designer with
unidentified goals, unidentified powers created using unidentified means a
system.
What's so scientific about that?
Nelson:
Since this entire post was one huge handwave, nothing could possibly lead to
this conclusion.
>>
FMA:
Keep ignoring the vaste holes in ID :-)
Nelson:
Which ones? You have given me none.
FMA:
You call it handwaving but you have shown that the handwaving is what ID is
all about.
Nelson:
Another handwave.
FMA:
My comments merely 'uncover' what others have found similarly.
Nelson:
Your comments assert what you cannot demonstrate.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Sep 13 2000 - 12:18:49 EDT