Is Christian morality so distant from evolutionary ethics?

From: Ed.Babinski@furman.edu
Date: Tue Mar 07 2000 - 19:01:56 EST

  • Next message: Ed.Babinski@furman.edu: "Evolution, Christianity, Homosexuality, Proposition 22, AIDS, Ethics"

    Evolutionary Ethics and Christian morality discussed
    below. But first, a nod to a good point raised by John
    Rylander...

    Thanks John,
    You raised an interesting point: Atheists probably
    "live together" more often than religious folks,
    and when their relationships end, they do not fall under the
    rubric of "divorce" and so such breakups may not have
    found there way into Barna's statistics.

    Of course, neither do we know whether Barna took that
    into account when gathering his information and
    analyzing it. He might have asked how long the couple
    have been "living together," and considered atheists
    together for a number of years as being "married" by virtue
    of "common law."

    Even if Barna did not take such questions into account,
    the idea of delaying marriage in favor of living
    together for a while before getting married could then
    be made, since if it works for atheists in reducing
    the divorce rate, then maybe there is something
    positive to be said about living together before marriage.
    Or conversely, maybe there is something negative to
    be said about abstaining from sex until marriage, because
    I have on file another study that shows that members of
    hardline Protestant Christian sects that stress abstinence
    before marriage wind up getting married at younger ages
    than members of other Christian denominations. So, they
    want sex so bad, they convince themselves that God has
    chosen just the right partner for them, and they marry them at
    ages younger than the general population. And you can imagine
    how that might relate to a higher divorce rate amongst them.
    So, maybe living together first, "the atheist way," is a more
    logical way to go than stressing "abstinence until marriage."
    By the way, even Puritan children used to have sex
    before marriage, while still in their teens, but they had it
    with the proviso that should the woman get pregnant,
    the boy promised to marry her, if not, then the boy did not
    have to marry her. So, youths find "ways" to have sex
    in each generation, whether it means marrying at an
    earlier age due to religious prohibitions against
    premarital sex, or just living together and not marrying.

    Speaking of the SIGNIFICANCE of this matter, I think
    that if the evidence shows (as Barna himself suspects it does)
    that Christians are not necessarily "better" people, then
    they cannot argue for evidential superiority of
    their faith over that of others, including over those
    with no faith in God at all. And that leaves the playing field
    open to "evolutionary ethics" as a rival explanation,
    or at least as an explanation to be incorporated into the whole "God"
    schema (as Zygon contends, i.e., Zygon is a journal in favor
    of the marriage between science and faith. Whether or not that
    marriage will end in divorce remains to be seen. It depends
    on one's perspective. *S*)

    Of course, if hardline evangelical Christians had as low a percentage
    of divorces after taking what they claim are "holy" vows, vouchsafed by God
    and with the aid of the Holy Spirit in picking a mate and keeping
    the relationship alive, then I daresay, they would use such
    information to brag about the superiority of their faith and the
    inferiority of others. All in all the atheist article did not cite the
    statistics
    as "proof" of the truth of their beliefs, but merely as a curiosity,
    a leveling of the playing field, and used Barna's data to satirize
    the self proclaimed superiority of Christianity.

    A book by Barna was reviewed by atheist and former Christian evangelist,
    Dan Barker, below...again, leveling the playing field.

    National Surveys Question Christian Morality

    Believers Are No Better

    By Dan Barker

    Are Christians more moral or successful than non-Christians?

    The Second Coming Of The Church by George Barna (Word Publishing, 1998), reports that
    they are not. The author, a born-again Christian sociologist, is founder and president of
    Barna Research Group (CA), which releases many meaningful survey results.

    Although most of Barna's book is a sermon to Christian ministers on how the church should
    regain its lost status, it does contain some frank statistics showing how the present church
    has "failed" in its mission. The numbers are based on Barna's own studies, and other
    national surveys.

    Barna compares the behaviors and attitudes of Christians with Non-Christians (see tables
    below) and concludes: "We think and behave no differently from anyone else."

          Examples of the Similarity of Behavior Between Christians and
                                 Non-Christians

                 (from The Second Coming Of The Church, p 6, partial list)

    Have been divorced (among those who have been married) Born Again Christians: 27%;
    Non-Christians: 23%

    Gave money to a homeless person or poor person, in past year Born Again Christians:
    24%; Non-Christians: 34%

    Took drugs or medication prescribed for depression, in past year Born Again Christians:
    7%; Non-Christians: 8%

    Watched an X-rated movie in the past 3 months Born Again Christians: 9%;
    Non-Christians: 16%

    Donated any money to a nonprofit organization, in past month Born Again Christians:
    47%; Non-Christians: 48%

    Bought a lottery ticket, in the past week Born Again Christians: 23%; Non-Christians:
    27%

    Attended a community meeting on local issue, in past year Born Again Christians: 37%;
    Non-Christians: 42%

          Examples of the Similarity of Attitudes Between Christians and
                                 non-Christians

                 (from The Second Coming Of The Church, p 21, partial list)

    Feel completely or very successful in life Born Again Christians: 58%; Non-Christians:
    49%

    It is impossible to get ahead because of your financial debt Born Again Christians: 33%;
    Non-Christians: 39%

    You are still trying to figure out the purpose of your life Born Again Christians: 36%;
    Non-Christians: 47%

    Satisfied with your life these days Born Again Christians: 69%; Non-Christians: 68%

    Your personal financial situation is getting better Born Again Christians: 27%;
    Non-Christians: 28%

    Barna also sheds light on the definition of "God" that most Americans claim to believe in:

        "Since more than nine out of ten Americans own at least one Bible, and 86
        percent call themselves Christian, you might expect people to pay homage to the
        deity described and followed by the Christian Church. In July 1997, we asked a
        nationwide sample of 1,012 adults to describe the God they believe in. Two out
        of three adults (67 percent) said they believe that God is the all-knowing,
        all-powerful Creator of the universe who rules the world today. The remaining
        one-third described their god as 'the total realization of personal, human
        potential'; or 'a state of higher consciousness that a person may reach'; or said,
        'Everyone is God'; 'There are many gods, each with different power and
        authority'; or 'There is no such thing as God.' The remaining 5 percent said they
        did not know." [Pages 25-26]

    According to Barna, a third of Americans does not really believe in "God" at all.

    In spite of all the sermons about how belief makes a difference in life, the numbers show
    that Christians are not better off than unbelievers. At least one born-again sociologist is
    honest enough to admit it.

    Or did we know this already?

    Dan Barker is a staff member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation and a former
    born-again minister. Freethought Today, September 1999
    -----------------------------

    EVOLUTIONIST FRIEND OF MINE FOUND THE ARTICLE
    I SENT INTERESTING...

    An interesting article, Ed. I'd heard something
    similar on a local news-radio station recently. If I
    were to idly speculate as to a reason for the higher
    divorce rate I probably go with stress. That opinion
    is based on observation of my parents, and of the
    society I observe at my wife's church. In my parent's
    case, their general split from Christianity they have
    described as being a considerable relief, especially
    for my mother. Observing interactions at my wife's
    church likewise reveals what could be a considerable
    amount of stress amongst married couples. There's even
    a separate Sunday School for them.

    Now, I've not made an exhaustive study, so none of my
    remarks should be construed as intended to be
    representative of a global situation amongst
    Christians, or even Baptists. However, amongst the
    religious community I'm exposed to there is this
    underlying idea of the role of the wife and husband in
    the church and in life along the lines of "the wife
    shall submit to her husband". I notice that there is
    considerable emotional release during church services,
    and it is mainly the women that are involved. The
    stress occurs, I think, in that society doesn't
    necessarily follow along with the ideas planted in
    Church. Women are more free these days than at any
    time in history.

    Some of the remarks I've encountered over the years
    include things like "I love God more than my wife",
    which always makes me wonder how the wife feels about
    that. The same guy I'm thinking of also made comments
    about not marrying "outside of one's tribe", something
    which I came very close to punching him in the nose
    about, because I'm white, and my wife is black. I was
    very restrained.

    [Jonathan Edwards answered his parishioners, "Can the
    believing husband in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving
    wife in Hell? Can the believing father in Heaven be
    happy with his unbelieving children in Hell? Can the
    loving wife in Heaven be happy with her unbelieving
    husband in Hell? I tell you, yea! Such will be their
    sense of justice that it will increase rather than
    diminish their bliss." (Discourses on Various
    Important Subjects, 1738) Talk about one's religious
    faith adding stress to one's marriage! - Ed ]

    However I digress. The increased divorce rates amongst
    the smaller denominations may reflect increased
    stress. I wonder what the divorce rate is like amongst
    fundamentalists? Anyway, these are just some of my
    speculations on the issue.

    Jeremy



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