Bertvan:
>> "Choice", which to some degree
>> characterizes of all life, is actually as supernatural as any god.
Chris
>How so? If a simple computer program can choose, how is choice supernatural?
>Choice, in humans, is simply the selection of one alternative from among two
>or more alternatives, as grasped by consciousness. How is that supernatural?
>You choose whichever action seems preferable to you at the time of
>choosing. It's merely the process of evaluating the alternatives and
>selecting the one with the highest evaluation at the moment. THIS is
Bertvan
Hi Chris, Computers make choices, but is it a free choice. Wouldn't another
computer with the same program and the same data make exactly the same
choice? Always? Humans sometimes make choices which conflict with their own
self interest, and in contradiction of their life experiences, often in the
interest of some abstract idea. (Socio biology's speculation about an
"altruism gene" arrived at by "random mutation and natural selection" might
be interesting, but so far there isn't much evidence for it.) Human choices
are something science can neither measure, predict nor explain. Is there any
reason to deny that same unpredictability of choice (to a lesser degree,
perhaps) to all life. Otherwise , all behavior would be completely
predictable.
Chris:
>But, free will or not, we still have choice. Choice does not require
>indeterminism. Indeterministic free will IS an illusion, created by simple
>confusion, ignorance, and superstition. We experience free will, not
>indeterminism.
Bertvan:
Just as I am content for you to regard "the appearance of design" an
illusion., you are also entitled to regard free will as an illusion. However
I see nothing scientific about the attitude. I disagree with your contention
that "the burden of proof " is upon anyone who disagrees with you.
Chris:
>We find that no large organism that we've ever studied has a
>clean genetic structure; it's an unGodly mess in there; If it's designed,
>it's designed very badly, very sloppily. It's the kind of stuff we find from
>beginning computer programmers; a jumble. If it's designed, the designer is
>an idiot. Any second-year engineering student could do better (and often
>DOES do better!!!!!!!!).
Bertvan:
I gather you aren't bothered by a surplus of modesty. :-) No one has
suggested nature is designed and manufactured by humans. Many of us agree
evolution occurred by laws of nature. Some of us suggest that the laws of
nature were designed, rather that the result of chance.
Bertvan