>But if you admit to the "community" idea, then it opens up another can of
>worms. If she was by a water source, able to move, albeit painfully, had
>the community fending off predators, etc. ... then you have another
> scenario, one that looks more like ape than man.
Jim, it amazes me that you can go to such lengths to avoid the conclusion
that H. erectus had a compassionate side like us. You claim that the
treatment of 1808 was more apelike and yet I bet you have not even read a
single book on the behavior of chimps. Since typing is so slow with my
casted arm, I am going to postpone the last installment of my H. erectus
stuff and answer this tonight.
You say that healthy apes, fending off predators in their own self
interest and inadvertently protecting 1808, is ape behavior, You are
showing that you really have not studied this area at all but are
preferring your philosophical position over and above any serious study.
This is the type of response that so frustrates me. You are simply saying
things, anything at all, to avoid a conclusion that make us uncomfortable.
I have seen this type of response often among Christian apologists. Far
too often these statements have absolutely no research behind them, and
neither does your statement. Things like you said are easy to say. And a
lot of people will think it sounds oh so reasonable. But then it takes a
lot of work to refute those baseless statements and convince others that
you really don't know what you are talking about here. Why are we
Christians like this?
I am going to quote Jane Goodall at length, if I can type it all.
There was a polio outbreak in the chimp tribe Goodall was watching and it
afflicted many of the chimps. One named McGregor was paralyzed by the
polio. When this newly paralyzed chimp drug himself back to camp, Goodall
reports:
"One of the most tragic things about the whole tragic affair was the
reaction of the chimps to the stricken paralyzed male. Initially, almost
certainly, they were frightened by the strangeness of his condition. We
noticed the same thing when some of the other polio victims appeared in
camp for the first time. " Jane Goodall, "In the Shadow of Man" Houghton
Mifflin 1971, p. 221
"McGregor's condition was patently far worse. Not only was he forced
to move about in an abnormal manner, but there was the smell of urine and
the bleeding rump and the swarm of flies buzzing around him. The first
morning of his return to camp, as he sat in the long grass below the
feeding area, the adult males, one after the other, approached with their
hair on end, and after staring began to display around him. Goliath
actually attacked the stricken old male, who, powerless to flee or defend
himself in any way, could only cower down, his face split by a hideous
grin of terror, while goliath pounded on his back. When another adult
male bore down on McGregor, hair bristling, huge branch flailing the
ground, Hugo and I went to stand in front of the cripple. To our relief,
the displaying male turned aside.
"After two or three days the others got used to McGregors strange
appearance and grotesque movements, but they kept well away from him.
There was one afternoon that without doubt was from my point of view the
most painful of the whole ten days. A group of eight chimps had gathered
and were grooming each other in a tree about sixty yards from where
McGregor lay in his nest. The sick male stared toward them, occassionally
giving slight grunts. Mutual grooming normally takes up a good deal of a
chimpanzees time, and the old male had been drastically starved of this
important social contact since his illness.
"Finally he dragged himself from his nest, lowered himself to the
ground, and in short stages began the long journey to join the others.
When at last he reached the tree he rested briefly in the shade; then,
making the final effort he pulled himself up until he was close to two
grooming males. With a loud grunt of pleasure he reached a hand toward
them in greeting--but even before he made contact they both had swung
quickly away and without a backward glance started grooming on the far
side of the tree. For a full two minutes old Gregor sat motionless,
staring after them. And then he laboriously lowered himself to the
ground. As I watched him sitting there alone, my vision blurred, and when
I looked up at the groomers in the tree I came nearer to hating a
chimpanzee than I have ever been before or since.
"For several years Hugo and I had suspected that the aggressive adult
male Humphrey was McGregor's younger brother. The two traveled about
together frequently and often the older male had hurried to Humphrey's
assistence when he was being threatened or attacked by other chimps. It
was during the last days of Mr. McGregor's life that we became convinced
these two males were siblings:no bond other than that of a family could
have accounted for Humphrey's behavior then--and afterward.
"In the whole period Humphrey seldom moved farther than a few
hundred yards away from the old male--although even he never actually
groomed McGregor. Sometimes Humphrey went away across the valley to feed,
but within an hour or so he was back, resting or grooming himself near his
paralyzed friend. On the first day of his return to camp McGregor
climbed quite high in a tree and made a nest. Suddenly Goliath began to
display around him, swaying the branches more and more vigorously,
slashing the old male on the head and the back. Gregor's screams grew
louder, and he clung to the rocking branches tightly. At last, as if in
desparation, he let himself drop down through the tree from branch to
brabch, until he landed on the ground. Then he started to drag himself
slowly away. And Humphrey, who had always been extremely nervous of
Goliath, actually leaped up into the tree, displaying wildly at the much
higher ranking male, and for a brief moment attacking him. I could hardly
believe it.
"One day Mr. McGregor managed to pull himself right up to the
feeding area, up to thirty yards of very steep slope, to join a large
number of chimpanzees who were eating there. We were able to give him a
whole box to himself so that for a while, at least, he was part of the
group again. When the others moved away up the valley, Gregor tried to
follow. But whether he dragged himself on his belly, or hitched himself
backward, or laboriously somersaulted, he could move only very slowly,
and the rest of the group were soon out of sight."Ibid pp 221-223
Notice that even Humphrey did not bring food or water to his sibling. Nor
did Humphrey groom Mcgregor. The troop did their best to run McGregor out
and one wonders what would have happened to McGregor that first night when
Jane and Hugo stopped the attack. Maybe McGregor would have been killed.
This, Jim, is apelike concern and compassion. The Homo erectus 1808 was
treated better. Her bones tell us that she had to have lived for weeks or
months. Because of the length of time she lived and the more dangerous
environment she lived in, more compassion and care was necessary. The
erectae lived on the plains where an injured animal can be clearly seen
from quite a distance. The chimps live in the forest and an injured
animal can last longer because they cann go unnoticed.
Now, Jim, I am glad that when I broke my leg, I received the care which
was equivalent to that given to 1808 by the Homo erectae rather than that
received by poor old McGregor. I would not be here if I had received mere
apelike care and concern you are so convinced was given to 1808.
glenn
Foundation,Fall and Flood
http://members.gnn.com/GRMorton/dmd.htm