On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:31:50 -0500 you wrote:
>BH>I think any scholar that did not consider the possibility that
>private correspondence may contain "tentative ideas and even
>nonsense" would not be much of a scholar. Surely Darwin's
>parenthetical remark "and oh! what a big if" suggests that
>Darwin thought the idea tentative at best.
>SJ>Of course Darwin's corrrspondence had "tentative ideas". But
>my point was that they would have been well-thought out, and
>certainly not "nonsense".
BH>But you wrote:
>
> 'Those who have done this must assume that Darwin did
> not just dash off "tentative ideas and even nonsense",
> but thought deeply and seriously about what he wrote.'
> -- SJ
>
>Please make up your mind. What is it now, that Darwin *did*
>"dash off" some tentative ideas but they were well-thought out
>tentative ideas?
There is no need for me to "make up" my "mind". It is perfectly clear
if you read what I wrote! :-) I disagree with the "dash off" and
nonsense", bit of Yockey's post. My point was that Darwin was such a
cautious and deep thinker that even his "tentative ideas" would have
been well-thought out.
>BH>Also note that
>the quote begins "It is often said ..." indicating that the
>subject was commonly discussed at the time. I also read somewhere
>(but can't seem to find the reference) that Darwin's father
>Erasmus also discussed the warm little pond. In any event,
>there seems good reason to doubt that the idea was original
>to Darwin.
>SJ>Erasmus Darwin was Charles Darwin's *grandfather*. I have already
>quoted Orgel and Shapiro who state that "the warm little pond" origin
>of life idea originated with Charles Darwin. If you claim it was
>originated by Erasmus Darwin, then you would need to demonstrate
>that.
BH> Would it be too bold to imagine, that in the great length
> of time since the earth began to exist, perhaps millions
> of ages before the commencement of the history of mankind,
> would it he too bold to imagine, that all [vegetables and
> animals now existing were originally derived from the
> smallest microscopic ones, formed by spontaneous vitality
> in primeval oceans], which The Great First Cause endued
> with animality, with the power of acquiring new parts,
> attended with new propensities, directed by irritations,
> sensations, volitions, and associations; and thus possessing
> the faculty of continuing to improve by its own inherent
> activity, and of delivering down those improvements by
> generation to its posterity, world without end!
> -- Erasmus Darwin, as quoted by D. King-Hele in
> <Erasmus Darwin>, Macmillan, 1963, p. 71.
>
>According to King-Hele, Darwin wrote something like this first in
><Zoonomia> [volume I, 1794] except for the part in [brackets].
>The above version appeared in <The Temple of Nature>, 1803.
>
>Now on page 73 of <Erasmus Darwin>, King-Hele writes:
>
> In <The Temple of Nature> Darwin sums up the process
> of evolution in four brilliant couplets, emphasizing
> his belief that life began spontaneously in the sea:
>
> ORGANIC LIFE beneath the shoreless waves
> Was born and nurs'd in Ocean's pearly caves;
> First forms minute, unseen by spheric glass,
> Move on the mud, or pierce the watery mass;
> These, as successive generations bloom,
> New powers aquire, and larger limbs assume;
> Whence countless groups of vegetation spring,
> And breathing realms of fin, and feet, and wing.
Sorry, these are secondary sources so I can't accept them! :-)
Seriously, thanks for the quotes from Erasmus Darwin. But they are
not in the same league as Darwin's "warm little pond" quote.
BH>(b) he doesn't deserve credit for it. IMHO, proper credit is
>due the first person who *was* willing to take responsibility
>for the idea by publishing it and defending it publicly.
SJ>This is your criteria. But the fact is that Charles Darwin *has*
>been given the "credit" for it, because he first thought of it and
>wrote it down (albeit in private correspondence).
BH>It is irrelevant that he *has* been given credit. Orgel et al could
>be wrong, no?
Of course, but I the burden of proof is on you to produce a quote
prior to Charles Darwin that outlines the pre-biotic evolution
research program as clearly as his "warm little pond" letter.
BH>Further, this is not just *my* criteria.
Agreed. It was Yockey's quote.
BH>The key in the Darwin quote was his gravity illustration:
>
> "Who can explain the essence of the attraction of gravity?
> No one now objects to following out the results consequent on
> this unknown element of attraction ..."
>
IOW, the "unknown element of attraction" is accepted as an axiom.
>SJ>Darwin says nothing about an "axiom", but he does say: "the
>attraction of gravity...his unknown element of attraction".
BH>He doesn't have to actually say "axiom". What do you think
>"...following out the results consequent on this unknown element
>of attraction ..." means?
What it says "unknown"! :-)
God bless.
Steve
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