RE: [asa] Re: (religious memes?)

Dr. Campbell said:
"One might legitimately describe the progressive nature of revelation as evolutionary in some fashion, though I would agree with Gregory that this is somewhat stretching the definition of evolution."

Gregory probably also objects to cosmological evolution because it isn't like biological evolution. Evolution is different in society, stars, and biology in details; the same component of evolution is in all, that more complex things are built-up from simpler things (not de novo creations of complex things).

Dr. Campbell said:
"The atheism meme seems to overlap with a lot of human sacrifice, too,
though in the form of guillotines, genocide, gulags, etc. rather than
on a physical altar."

I think it is a shame to blame genocide on atheism just as it is to blame the Crusades on Christianity. Both atheism and Christianity have been used to instigate evil, but they have also both been used to instigate good.

Schwarzwald said:
"Offering up a sacrifice to some spirit, ancestor, or deity in the hopes of bargaining with them hardly strikes me as 'the same' as what the Hebrews did."

Even the Hebres sacrificed to a false god (Azazel, the god of the desert), in Lev. 16:8,10,26. Translating Azazel as 'scapegoat' is a work of obfuscation, I think. I think the MSG is more clear on this one:

Leviticus 16:8 (The Message)

 6-10 "Aaron will offer the bull for his own Absolution-Offering in order to make atonement for himself and his household. Then he will set the two goats before God at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and cast lots over the two goats, one lot for God and the other lot for Azazel. He will offer the goat on which the lot to God falls as an Absolution-Offering. The goat on which the lot for Azazel falls will be sent out into the wilderness to Azazel to make atonement.

Moorad said:
"Often people discuss biblical events to similar events in other cultures. I do not know if that is done to undermine the Bible or else to indicate that the biblical writers got the material from earlier cultures."

The latter. And establishing the latter undermines the unique claim for Scripture.

Moorad said:
"Now to a Christians, we have human (animal) sacrifice in a sense going back to Abraham."

Not sacrifice for sin. I think it was only freewill offerings from Abraham (thank offerings?)

Dave said:
"Sounds as though you are trying to make Moses the inventor of terms for sin."

Yes. Moses is the one credited with introducing the OT. And Aaron was the first Priest:

Exodus 28:41
After you put these clothes on your brother Aaron and his sons, anoint and ordain them. Consecrate them so they may serve me as priests.

Murray Hogg said:
"I reckon that sacrifice (or more broadly, offerings to the gods) is one of those intrinsically religious things that humans do - like prayer, worship, fasting, etc."

Just because it is our nature doesn't make it right. It is also our nature to be superstitious, and science has rid us of a lot of superstition. Can we really know God's will be reading omens? They did that in the OT and NT, but we don't do it now (actually, some still do, like those who propose "putting out a fleece" OT style, but in a figurative way, not literal, though still using it as an omen).

I was recently reading about omens (in ANE manuscripts and OT) in Sparks' book:
"Ancient Texts For The Study Of The Hebrew Bible: A Guide To The Background Literature."
http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Texts-Study-Hebrew-Bible/dp/1565634071/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2/189-9860859-6596268

,,,Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of David Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 4:22 PM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?) [christians_in_science] Brilliant article by Dawkins

Another problem with literary "evolutionary" approaches to the Bible
is that their concept of evolution is rather more like Marx's than
modern biological evolution. That is, there are preconceived notions
of when and how certain ideas ought to have come about, in a
particular sequence. E.g., asserting there couldn't be kings in Edom
if the populace was still largely nomadic, or that concepts of
sinning-punishment-repentance-restoration could not have been held by
Hebrews before the exile, even though it's highly obvious and widely
held in surrounding cultures far earlier.

On the other hand, it is true that the Bible gradually works up to a
number of points. Several of the popularly invoked "bad" laws (e.g.,
regarding slavery) are in fact marked improvements over contemporary
surrounding cultures. One might legitimately describe the progressive
nature of revelation as evolutionary in some fashion, though I would
agree with Gregory that this is somewhat stretching the definition of
evolution.

> Take the ancient pagan idea of killing someone to appease the gods to end a drought.  1. Is that of God? 2. Of Satan?  3. Of human imagination?  Any other ideas?<

It could be a seriously distorted take on God's original directions to
humanity. Regardless of the exact envisioned mode by which we became
spiritual and received direction from God, the Bible portrays us as
having some inherent awareness of our need for reconciliation with God
as well as an inherent tendency to turn away from God. Thus pagan
sacrifices could be distorted versions of instructions to Adam or Noah
or whoever, or misguided attempts to address a felt need for
reconciliation. It's easy to envision how the idea of sacrifices to
keep the gods happy could escalate into the need to sacrifice
something particularly important in urgent cases, to human sacrifice.

The fact that there are similar motifs in Christianity and in many
other religions is no problem; it simply suggests that Christianity is
addressing widely-perceived needs. Human sacrifice is, however, a
good answer to those who consider all religions to be alike.

The atheism meme seems to overlap with a lot of human sacrifice, too,
though in the form of guillotines, genocide, gulags, etc. rather than
on a physical altar.

-- 
Dr. David Campbell
425 Scientific Collections
University of Alabama
"I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
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