RE: [asa] Louie Giglio

Hi Jon- what does it mean that "Christ is holding us together?" Does it mean that he is holding all the particles together personally, or could He have created the strong and weak nuclear forces for that? I think he botched the meaning of the verse. I argued with a Christian about this once- as they think God literally and personally holds things together, as if the strong and weak force undermines the role for God to play.

...Bernie
________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Jon Tandy
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 6:16 PM
To: 'asa'
Subject: RE: [asa] Louie Giglio

Bernie,

I did acknowledge that he probably overstated the case. As regards your statement that he uses this as a fulfillment of the scripture verse, he does come dangerously close to this by asking, "How do (we) know that God literally holds us together? We need to go a little deeper into the human body..." and then goes into an extended lead-in to the subject of laminin. However, after that point, though he uses it as an analogy of Christ holding us together, he doesn't drive home the point anything like what you ascribed to him, as "saying God planted these as signs to scientists". (Note, I don't have any particular motivation to defend Giglio, but just pointing out that he didn't say this. Whether he did elsewhere, or if others took his words further than he did, I can't say.)

In fact at the end of that segment, he says, "So you're at the toughest place in your life. How can you know that God is going to hold you together?" He *doesn't* answer the question by saying, you know it because there is a somewhat-cross-shaped protein in every cell of your body. Rather, he answers it with, "You know because there is a cross standing over history, and it is looming over this building tonight. It is the place where the 'star breather' became the sin bearer. Where the 'universe maker' became mankind's savior. And it is proof that God doesn't always change the circumstances. He did not change them for Jesus on that hillside...." And from there, he doesn't really make any more of laminin. Seems like fairly basic preaching of the cross to me.

Jon Tandy

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 12:26 PM
To: 'asa'
Subject: RE: [asa] Louie Giglio

Jon said:
"For those who might have a strong objection to his use of the "laminin parable", really I would have to ask whether they might object to the Lord's own use of such things as the mustard seed. "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed...which indeed is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown it is the greatest of herbs". We know there are significant scientific objections to this analogy that literalists try to step around; yet the point was not to open Christ to accusations of scientific inaccuracy, but to inform the minds and move the hearts of His followers on the nature of the kingdom. Giglio's presentation is indeed spiritually moving and thus of value, considering the purpose and the audience for which it was intended - as long as the analogy isn't taken too much further."

My point is that if he would have used Laminin as Jesus did, as you say above, that would be fine (we agree totally). But he seems to go overboard in saying that it is a fulfillment of the scripture verse "Jesus holds all things together" as if God did this on purpose to give a hint to molecular biologists (just like placing a cross in the cosmos for those peering into space). The schematic drawing of Laminin does look like a cross- but you have to really cherry-pick to get the microscope image. The schematic diagram also would not look like a cross if it would have been drawn upside-down or sideways- as if there is such a thing as drawing upside-down, because there is no true "north" with these things. For example- a person into warfare could have drawn in sideways and said it represented a sword. In this way- it is like seeing the face of Mary on the side of a building. Seeing it and thinking nice things is one way, but setting up a shrine as some Catholics would is overboard. In the same way- these could be nice illustrations- but going overboard to saying God planted these as signs to scientists. When someone sees the face of Jesus on a sandwich, does that mean it is a sign from God? Notice the difference in use of illustrations with this and Jesus- Jesus didn't use examples of things that visually looked like things to explain heavenly things, he used everyday experiences to illustrate the heavenly kingdom. He didn't say the mustard seed looked like anything in heaven- his example was going from very small to huge- unbelievably huge from such a small beginning (a mustard seed is a small fraction of the size of a bird, but the plant from the seed is big enough to support several birds).

...Bernie

________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Jon Tandy
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:53 AM
To: 'asa'
Subject: [asa] Louie Giglio

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Received on Tue Jan 27 16:19:59 2009