Re: [asa] Darwin only biological evolution? (can anything exist without evolution?)

Yes, of course Beethoven was influenced by the styles of his
pre-decessors - bits of Beethoven sound somewhat like bits of Haydn
and Mozart.

But a complete symphony is a whole truckload of new ideas put down.
You might argue that each individual phrase "evolved" from something
else, but the thing as a whole is a new creation - ideas put together
to make a complex structure in four movements. The structure itself
clearly didn't evolve - it was a creative work that had no
predecessors. (Arguably the Fantasia for Piano Chorus and Orchestra
is a precursor of the choral finale of the ninth symphony as the tune
used is similar in mood - but even then, there is no clear
evolutionary relationship between the notes in one tune and the
other).

Evolution is about gradual change (as Dawkins is always reminding us).
 Beethoven's music marked often several simultaneous radical changes.
Like putting a chorus and singers into a Symphony.

Or to take another example; Schoenberg invented the concept of atonal
music - that you used the 12 tones of the scale equally, rather than
biassing it towards the notes of a particular key (7 out of the 12).
This is completely unlike any previous western music, and thus, to my
mind is not a gradual "evolutionary" change. It overturned the whole
basis of it.

The same could apply to Einstein's relativity.

Iain

On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
> Ian said:
> " Explain to me, step-by-step, how Beethoven's Symphony No 9 is supposed
> to have evolved."
>
> Beethoven learned how to play the musical instrument- getting better and better as time progressed. I'm not familiar with his music, but if you study it carefully, I'm sure you'll see components of similar music that has been played before by himself and others. The musical instrument itself also evolved to the point to where he could use it- the piano didn't just get invented by someone who knew nothing about music- and it wasn't invented by fiat by God.
>
> This doesn't mean that Beethoven wasn't creative and didn't invent something new. In "memes" the mind creates new ideas and thoughts, and combines them with old, for something better. Did Beethoven know about music theory before his masterpiece? Obviously.
>
> Every meme system (financial, educational, technical, etc.) depends on new thoughts. That's what the brain does- makes new thoughts- just like the heart pumps blood or the lungs oxygenate blood. Dawkins limit the brain's new ideas to naturalism only, but I think God could also provide inspiration, which I don't see how it could be proven/disproven either way. I agree religion has a main meme component- that's why there's so many religions (I don't think Satan should be solely blamed for creating all the false religions and even false ideas within Christianity... for example, is YEC (for YEC rejectors) a bad meme or is it of Satan?)
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Iain Strachan [mailto:igd.strachan@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 8:50 AM
> To: Dehler, Bernie
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Darwin only biological evolution? (can anything exist without evolution?)
>
>>
>> I don't think there are any examples what-so-ever of anything that has not
>> evolved. If you can think of just one, give an example, and I think I can
>> explain to you how it evolved.
>>
>>
>
> Explain to me, step-by-step, how Beethoven's Symphony No 9 is supposed
> to have evolved.
>
> Iain
>
>
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