Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

Hello Iain,

I do not know Moorad, but as one who has been falsely labeled a creationist
before, I sympathize with his situation.

Michael writes:

"As Moorad is a YEc he is hardly liable to see YEC as a stumbling block -
which of course it is."

He does not ask Moorad if he accepts YEC. Neither does he qualify his
assertion as an impression, perspective, or opinion. He asserts it as fact.

Moorad then replies, "Michael, show me anything I have written or said that
agrees with your statement that I am a YEC. You will find none."

This is a fair request.

Michael replies, "I refer to the website of the Earth History Research
Center. I rest my case."

I don't find this to be an intellectually honest response. Instead of
providing the writings, and quotes from the writings, Michael "rests his
case" to an unlinked website and nothing more. Since I have never heard of
the Earth History Research Center, I'm left with the closed case of Michael's
unsupported impressions and public accusations.

Michael, you asserted, as fact, that "Moorad is a YEc." You have a
Christian and scholarly obligation to support the accusation with evidence.
If there is none, then you have a Christian and scholarly obligation to
retract the claim and apologize.

Y'see, Michael, as I said, I do not know Moorad. But thanks to your words,
in my mind, there is NOW a connection between him and YEC. If there is no
basis for this connection, I am offended by the fact that you have altered
my perceptions like this and have now turned Moorad into the topic.

Iain then replies:

"And despite your protestations of how distinguished a physicist you are (I
don't doubt that), it would certainly appear that the Earth History Research
Center is advocating a YEC position."

Guilt by association is not an intellectually honest response to "show me
anything I have written or said that agrees with your statement that I am a
YEC" (didn't I just write about this?). After all, it looks to me that
many TEs/ECs on this list go to churches or hang out with fellow Christians
who advocate some form of YEC or OEC.

- Mike Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: "Iain Strachan" <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
To: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
Cc: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

> How ironic that not two hours after I posted a comment about the
> unhelpful nature of "ad hominem" attacks, that you should post one of
> the worst and most insulting ones I have ever seen. Boasting about
> the length of your publication list and accusing your opponent of
> being a "two-bit" scientist doesn't match up to my idea of a civilised
> debate.
>
> And despite your protestations of how distinguished a physicist you
> are (I don't doubt that), it would certainly appear that the Earth
> History Research Center is advocating a YEC position.
>
> Iain
>
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> wrote:
>> If you are not feeble-minded, would you kindly read the papers that
>> appear in my CV http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html
>> <http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html> . After you do that,
>> you will have to shut your face and prove that you are nothing perhaps
>> but a two-bit scientist, if not a two-bit charlatan.
>>
>>
>> Moorad
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Michael Roberts [mailto:michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk]
>> Sent: Sat 10/25/2008 3:03 AM
>> To: Alexanian, Moorad; asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>>
>> I refer to the website of the Earth History Research Center.
>>
>> I rest my case
>>
>> Michael
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
>> To: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; "George Cooper"
>> <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>; <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:54 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>> Michael, show me anything I have written or said that agrees with your
>> statement that I am a YEC. You will find none. That is your problem; you
>> assume erroneously and so conclude foolishly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Moorad
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Michael Roberts
>> Sent: Fri 10/24/2008 6:23 PM
>> To: George Cooper; asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>>
>> As Moorad is a YEc he is hardly liable to see YEC as a stumbling block -
>> which of course it is.
>>
>> I like your land of Silly but the main road out leads to the slough of
>> despond (and doubt)
>>
>> Michael
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "George Cooper" <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:07 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>>> Moorad said," I am not sure what are you trying to convince this
>>> gentleman
>>> of. Is there an obstacle for this gentleman to seek God's kingdom and
>>> His
>>> righteousness, which you are trying to remove?"
>>>
>>> Your focus is wise, but I struggle with this issue.
>>>
>>> In this case, it seems that Dennis' friends are the ones trying to
>>> convince
>>> him, since he said he is the rod (not the lightning). Yes, there is an
>>> obstacle. The issue is not some sidebar to the Roman Road, such as the
>>> age
>>> of the Earth, it is how far Christians (mostly "good" ones, too) are
>>> willing
>>> to push the Bible into the land of Silly. The sillier people make
>>> Genesis
>>> look, the sillier the Bible looks, and the sillier our faith appears to
>>> unbelievers. If the Bible is unreasonable or irrational, then we have a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> "Coope"
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Dennis Venema
>>> Sent: Fri 10/24/2008 5:00 PM
>>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>>> Subject: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>>
>>>
>>> I seem to be something of a lightning rod for YECs in my local church
>>> sphere. At present I am discussing these issues with a gentleman from my
>>> congregation, but I am not making much progress in having him try to
>>> understand my point of view. We can't even get past the age-of-the-earth
>>> issue. He is not interested in looking at any evidence, either.
>>>
>>> I am interested in what advice folks might have - I am especially
>>> interested
>>> in hearing from those of you who used to be YECs but now accept an old
>>> earth. What was useful to you as you made the transition?
>>>
>>> Thanks, all.
>>>
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -----------
> Non timeo sed caveo
>
> -----------
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.3/1744 - Release Date: 10/24/2008
> 6:08 PM
>
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sat Oct 25 11:25:46 2008