Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID

It surely seems to be.

On 9/21/07, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Nevermind the document. When Jesus said that since the world hated Him, it
> would hate us too, is that the product of imagination?
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of D. F. Siemens, Jr.
> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:30 AM
> To: john_walley@yahoo.com
> Cc: d.nield@auckland.ac.nz; gmurphy@raex.com; Mahaffy@dordt.edu;
> asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID
>
> I have just finished reading the entire document. There are a very few
> places where I would have used slightly different language, but I believe
> that it because the English version is a translation of the original
> French one. I found nothing seriously wrong with it, and much to commend
> strongly. The fears expressed are a product of imagination, not evidence.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:11:06 -0400 "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> writes:
> >
> >
> > I never said the document itself criminalizes faith, but rather
> > there are
> > forces at work in or culture that are. Consider that they may have
> > "wedge"
> > documents of their own.
> >
> > I can accept that there in fact may be a need for these guidelines
> > especially in light of other religious influences that may seek to
> > hijack
> > science to its own ends. But I contend atheism is as guilty of this
> > as is
> > Christianity and Islam.
> >
> > So I ask, at what point has atheism in science gone too far?
> > Consider a
> > modern day paraphrase of Niemöller:
> >
> > First they outlawed the creationists but I said nothing because I
> > wasn't a
> > creationist.
> >
> > Then they outlawed the IDers and I said nothing because I wasn't an
> > IDer.
> >
> > Then they outlawed TE's but I said nothing because I wasn't a TE.
> >
> > You get the picture...
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Don Nield
> > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 11:54 PM
> > To: John Walley
> > Cc: 'George Murphy'; 'James Mahaffy';
> > 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
> > Subject: Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID
> >
> > John is reading into the EU document something that is not there.
> > Sure, I have more in common with Denyse and ID than I have with
> > Dawkins
> > when it comes to religion-- far more. But when Denyse and those of
> > like
> > mind talk nonsense about the teaching of science they do not advance
> > the
> > teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
> > Further, it is unreasonable to see the current EU resolution as a
> > trend
> > to criminalize faith. It does no such thing. It sets out guidelines
> > as
> > to what is good science.
> > Don
> >
> > John Walley wrote:
> > > What is wrong with that is that while most of the focus on this
> > list is
> > > straining gnats to protect science from faith, in contrast by
> > allowing the
> > > marginalization and even criminalization of all forms of faith in
> > our
> > > society under the guise of science, it is the equivalent of
> > swallowing
> > > camels.
> > >
> > > I do not think the forces behind these movements are as benign as
> > you may
> > > think in defending science from overzealous Christians. With
> > prominent
> > > scientists like Dawkins publicly equating faith with child-abuse
> > and
> > > prominent politicians like Al Gore equating Christian faith with
> > Islamic
> > > terrorism, it doesn't take a genius to see where this is all
> > heading.
> > Having
> > > pure science will be little consolation when they come for you. A
> > paraphrase
> > > of Martin Niemöller would be appropriate here.
> > >
> > > The resistance to this growing trend that Denyse and others is
> > appropriate
> > > even if politically misguided and the science is somewhat tenous.
> > > Regardless, if you share the bonds of Christ, then you have more
> > in common
> > > with Denyse and ID proponents than you do with Dawkins and those
> > behind
> > this
> > > trend to criminalize faith. I would think that should be obvious
> > to you.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > > Behalf Of Don Nield
> > > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 10:03 PM
> > > To: John Walley
> > > Cc: 'George Murphy'; 'James Mahaffy';
> > 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] EU proposed regulation of creationism and ID
> > >
> > > John Walley wrote:
> > >
> > >> But in fairness, by this definition of ID below which they still
> > term
> > >> "dangerous", it disqualifies any form of theism and accepts only
> > natural
> > >> selection as science.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > What is wrong with that? Is not the implication of the document
> > that
> > > science employs methodological naturalism?
> > >
> > >> While granted it may be more properly addressed in philosophy or
> > religion
> > >> classes, at least the NAS concedes that TE is not in conflict
> > with
> > >>
> > > science.
> > >
> > >> That sounds liberal compared to these regulations.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > Not to me. These are not regulations but rather guidelines as to
> > what is
> > > good science and what is not.
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> John
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Creationism has many contradictory aspects. The "intelligent
> > design"
> > >>
> > >> theory, which is the latest, more refined version of creationism,
> > does
> > >>
> > >> not deny a certain degree of evolution but claims that this is
> > the work
> > >>
> > >> of a superior intelligence and not natural selection. Though more
> > subtle
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> in its presentation, the doctrine of intelligent design is no
> > less
> > >>
> > >> dangerous."
> > >>
> > >>
> > > Don
> > >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sat Sep 22 01:45:56 2007